Avant garde recs

[omar zamora]

There was a pre-invasion thread where Joel requested some recommendations for modern avant garde jazz recordings and artists. I believe he had some other criteria and parameters.

So I was wondering what the new kids have to add to the subject.

[Chuck Nessa]

Why don't you bring up the old thread, let us see the dicussion and maybe we can add something - maybe not.

[J Larsen]

Chuck's avatar is a recommendation in itself...

[RDK]

I think the problem, Chuck, is that it may be difficult to bring up (or move) the old thread into this new forum structure. Maybe Mike can do that for us.

[ralphie_boy]

Originally posted by omar zamora
There was a pre-invasion thread...

That's right - we're here and we've come for your women ;)

[Muskrat Ramble]

Someone stole the bell from the hotel desk!

[Joel]

Adam...wait...

post here >> some weird stuff for your ears (http://forums.allaboutjazz.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=272)

[Garrison]

Chucks Art Box is splendid. I wouldn't trade this one. Some of the out-takes are very revealing also.

Air- Pick-up at least Air-Time-Air Raid and Air Song.

IMO Steve McCall is the real deal in this genre.

[shawn·m]

Lukrion, that you?

[Garrison]

Originally posted by hadi·blues
Lukrion, that you?

Zats me Santa Claus! ;)

[shawn·m]

Ha! I thought the place had taken on a slight ‘Philly’ Joe ambience!

[Garrison]

I'll definately try to give it a "Philly Twist";)

Seriously, I have two very good threads on my hard drive I tried to post here on the avant guarde.

I'll have to break them up into smaller segments if I can.

[Garrison]

The current 'For Avant Garde Lovers only' thread gave me the idea to start this one.
I have a bunch of what I would consider Avant Garde. Mostly the obvious music, like later Coltrane, Coleman, Shepp etc.

What would you consider to be the most essential dates or even sleepers that are good examples of this music?

I'm looking for recordings where an emapthy between muscians can be felt, and where its obvious that they are actually listening to each others ideas, instead of blindly playing notes, which is my defn. of good jazz in any genre.

What would be titles on the top of you list?

[ February 16, 2002: Message edited by: lukrion ]

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Of course one can 'go to far' and except in directions in which we can go too far there is no interest in going at all; and only those who will risk going 'too far' can possibly find out just how far one can go. -T.S. Eliot


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ralphie_boy
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Member # 1410
posted February 16, 2002 08:09 AM
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quote:
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Originally posted by lukrion:
I'm looking for recordings where an emapthy between muscians can be felt, and where its obvious that they are actually listening to each others ideas, instead of blindly playing notes, which is my defn. of good jazz in any genre.
What would be titles on the top of you list?

[ February 16, 2002: Message edited by: lukrion ]


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Good thread and an important point to be taken. Sometimes there's a fine line between pure white noise and something that's more cohesive, but I agree, there needs to be some substance there for it to be meaningful.

Some of my favorites are as follows:

1) AYLER TRIO Spiritual Unity (ESP) - This is perhaps my favorite of the genre. While it may appear chaotic at first, there's a real "unity" amongst the players, especially Peacock and Murray.

2) MARION BROWN QUARTET (ESP)

3) NEW YORK ART QUARTET (ESP)

4) ORNETTE COLEMAN Change of the Century (Atlantic)

5) AYLER Vibrations (Freedom)

6) CHERRY Symphony for Imporvisors, Where is Brooklyn (BN)

Many others that I dig, but these are the first that come to mind.


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shrugs
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Member # 356
posted February 16, 2002 08:13 AM
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Air Air Time. This one is on the NESSA label and is regarded by many as one of their best.
Air was Henry Threadgill on reeds, flutes and the hubkaphone and hubkawall, Fred Hopkins on bass and Steve McCall on percussion.
If you have a turntable, try and find 80 degrees Below '82. It's on Antilles and is a riot.
Henry Thredgill's Sextett recordings on About Time are great. I wouldn't call them free jazz but they are forward thinking with a direct link to the so called tradition. And that doesn't have to be a bad thing, right?
Just The Facts and Pass The Bucket and When Was That have both been reissued on cd. There is a third called Subject To Change if you have a turntable and are so inclined.
Baikida Carroll Shadows and Reflections. On the Soul Note label. w/Julius Hemphill retuning the favor of Carroll's appearnace on the great Dogon AD(a great one too but a bit$h to find -- expensive on the original Mbari label but usually a bit cheaper on the Freedom pressing). Anthony Davis on piano, Dave Holland on bass and Pheeroan Ak Laff on drums. One of the great sleepers. Hardly anyone talks about this recording or Carroll.

John Lindberg's Give and Take on Black Saint.
this one is a trio with George Lewis on trombone and Barry Altschul on percussion. Lindberg's compositions were already top notch and he was barely 20 years old.
His appearance on Jimmy Lyons and Sunny Murray's Jump Up(or Jump Up/What To Do About on lp -- name change on cd due to Murray wanting to be the leader) is phenomenal. That cd is hard to find now but the 2 lp set pops up on e-bay for a good price from time to time.

Anthony Braxton's 70's work with George Lewis, Dave Holland and Barry Altschul deserve mention. He also had a great Quartet with Kenny Wheeler in place of Lewis. Those sessions are available on lp. titles are NY Fall, 1974, Five Pieces 1975 and some of the Montreaux Berlin Concerts(Lewis appears on one of the lp's).
The gem is Dortmund 1976 which was just reissued on HatOLOGY. Composition 40B burns and swings jsut as hard as any bop session.
It is also ion Basel which is another hatOlogy release with Braxton, Lewis, Muhal Richard Abrams, Mark Helias and Charles 'Bobo' Shaw.
Braxton's better later dates are hard to find right now for the most part. I think his 70's work is a great place to start.

For some fierce and beautiful solo tenor saxophone, check out Joe McPhee's Tenor and Fallen Angels.
for alto, Braxton's For Alto.
Both are high points in the world of solo improvising.

here's a list of great one's:
Peter Brotzmann Fu$K De Boere(Atavistic)
Globe Unity Orchestra, anything.
Barry Guy London Jazz Composers Orchestra, anything but I would start with Theoria or Harmos. all on Intakt.
Thomas Chapin Sky Piece(Kniting Factory)
Glenn Spearmann Blues For Falasha(Tzadik)
Cecil Taylor Olu Iwa and Winged Serpents would be a great intro into some of his groups with horns. 3 Phasis or the Cecil Taylor Unit may just change your life.
Vienna Art Orchestra, any of the Hat Arts's

whoa!!
gotta take a break!!

[ February 16, 2002: Message edited by: shrugs ]


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Mnytime
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Member # 1077
posted February 16, 2002 10:19 AM
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Here is a link to the Avante/Garde & Free Jazz Corner I started. There is a ton of recommendations in it.
http://www.bluenote.com/bulletinboard/ubb-cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=001737

[ February 16, 2002: Message edited by: Mnytime ]


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lukrion
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Member # 1156
posted February 16, 2002 10:27 AM
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Wow thats alot of suggestions!
I'm very familiar with the Don Cherry pieces, especailly with Blackwell. Great stuff.

Braxton fits my bill perfectly. These suggestions as well as those on Mnytime thread should keep me occupied for a while!!

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Of course one can 'go to far' and except in directions in which we can go too far there is no interest in going at all; and only those who will risk going 'too far' can possibly find out just how far one can go. -T.S. Eliot


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Mnytime
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posted February 16, 2002 10:48 AM
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Another thread with a ton of suggestions.
http://www.bluenote.com/bulletinboard/ubb-cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=8&t=002267


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thejosephboys
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Member # 480
posted February 16, 2002 10:57 AM
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Seems like I mention these records whenever I get the chance but they really fit the bill:
1. Arthur Jones - SCORPIO [BYG/Actuel]
2. Jacques Coursil - WAY AHEAD [BYG/Actuel]

The Coursil is a quartet date {Coursil-trumpet; Arthur Jones-alto; Beb Guerin-bass; Claude Delcloo-drums} and the Jones is the same band minus Coursil. WAY AHEAD is espescailly nice and sounds either like playing CHANGE OF THE CENTURY at 15rpm or a very mellow AACM. There are reviews up at www.allmusic.com

Brandon

[ February 16, 2002: Message edited by: thejosephboys ]

[ February 16, 2002: Message edited by: thejosephboys ]


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Posts: 509 | From: Lawrence, KS, USA | Registered: Nov 1999 | IP: Logged

glueyporch
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posted February 16, 2002 12:42 PM
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definately get cecils 3 phasis this record is amazing and did change my life! theres one on ebay for cheap...http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1513447676
also check out his european orchestra on fmp


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uli
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Member # 417
posted February 16, 2002 01:25 PM
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Without going into individual records, I like to add a couple of musicians/groups who fit the bill and may be called essential to the genre:
-Sun Ra
-art ensemble of Chicago and all the individual members
-Julius Hemphill
-Muhal Richard Abrams
-Leroy Jenkins
well, basically the AACM and BAG
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Posts: 1534 | From: Chicago | Registered: Oct 1999 | IP: Logged

shrugs
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Member # 356
posted February 16, 2002 01:54 PM
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Art Ensemble's NESSA box is a great way to explore.
Frank Lowe's The Flam on Black Saint is a scorcher.
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bamllr
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posted February 16, 2002 02:37 PM
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while it's not strictly in the same style, i would have to suggest Jimmy Giuffre's "Free Fall" with Paul Bley and Steve Swallow.
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lukrion
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Member # 1156
posted February 16, 2002 02:45 PM
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To make sure I'm not mixing apples and oranges, is the NESSA label, Chucks?
If so do I need to contact Chuck for these or are they avaiable through the usual sources? (Dusty, Amazon Tower,etc.)

I will have to set aside some of my box budget and try to get may hands the Art Ensemble set. I've heard about them before, and they sound like they would be well woth checking out.

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Of course one can 'go to far' and except in directions in which we can go too far there is no interest in going at all; and only those who will risk going 'too far' can possibly find out just how far one can go. -T.S. Eliot


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Chuck Nessa
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posted February 16, 2002 04:52 PM
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No apples, no oranges. Lemons.
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Posts: 1504 | From: Whitehall, MI | Registered: Oct 1999 | IP: Logged

lukrion
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Member # 1156
posted February 16, 2002 08:24 PM
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Hmmm, not a betting man and I've never played the machines in any casinos. Do three lemons signify the jackpot, or to quote Silient Cal when a women bet that she could make him say three words, "You lose."

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Of course one can 'go to far' and except in directions in which we can go too far there is no interest in going at all; and only those who will risk going 'too far' can possibly find out just how far one can go. -T.S. Eliot


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Joe Christmas
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Member # 119
posted February 16, 2002 09:46 PM
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Great thread!!
A newcomer to the music of Air (and Threadgill), their music continues to steamroll me with each recording. Outstanding interplay and Threadgill's has to be one of the most lyrical voices in the genre.

To expand on shrugs' recommendations, there is a cadre of British improvisers whose nucleus includes Barry Guy, Howard Riley, Evan Parker, Tony Oxley, Paul Lytton, Trevor Watts, Paul Rutherford and Derek Bailey, among others. A recording with any combination of these musicians is worth inspection. Most of them are still producing quality music without rehashing anything they have done previously. The late 60's and 70's material is often referred to as their *best* work, but I believe those opinions might be lingering from a time when the music had larger amounts of shock value. As great as the early stuff is (much of which is coming around again thanks to Martin Davidson's Emanem label), music of equal value can be found in Barry Guy's LJCO and scores of small group recordings.

The caliber of John Lindberg's compositions and technique cannot be stressed enough. I would recommend any of his records as a leader without hesitation to even the most skeptical listeners. Especially GIVE AND TAKE and A TREE FROG TONALITY. The man's music is HUGE.

George Lewis's recordings with Douglas Ewart, most notably JILA, HOMAGE TO CHARLES PARKER and SHADOWGRAPH 5 (all on Black Saint) are some of my favorites for many reasons. Lewis's playing has multiple, controlled personalities, from mimic to technical master. Couple that with the unsung brilliance of Ewart and you can blissfully lose yourself in their world.

Charles Gayle. Sucks that most can't say his name without negatively opining about his rants, clown suits, et al. I am here nor there with it myself, but it should be easy to look past all that with recordings like CONSECRATION and DAILY BREAD. He plays a crucial role in the aforementioned CECIL TAYLOR EUROPEAN ORCHESTRA on FMP.

Cecil Taylor. I believe I will be on a search to more fully understand the man and his music until I'm dead, which is the core of the appeal. His music is as natural to me as anything else. Hard to believe an extensive biography has yet to be written. What an undertaking that would be.

Jimmy Giuffre's FREE FALL is a very crude, but often workable experiment in "free jazz". You can hear the roots of the value in unscripted, free flowing music here. He nailed it with following records. Check out 1961 on ECM.

Steve Lacy. He has had the last laugh. His early work with Cecil Taylor and as a leader can be somewhat uneven, but he quickly developed his into one of the most solid, original voices in jazz. He has made a clean living paying homage to Monk, but that is not to take credit away from his original work. His own "The Bath" ranks right up there with "Autumn Leaves" and "Epistrophy". His working trio with Jean-Jacques Avenel and John Betsch should not be missed. He has also made several worthwhile recordings with wife Irene Aebi interpreting the written works of beat poets. The solo concert, HOOKY (Emanem), is nothing short of amazing.

Joe McPhee is astoundingly versatile on both reed and brass instruments. Definitely one of the most lyrical musicians in the business. His recordings are a chronological blueprint of much that has happened in "avant" jazz since the late 60's, IMO.

Some music that I am just discovering and loving:

Sun Ra. I have never felt ready to jump into his work, but shrugs hooked me up with some teasers and I'm addicted.

Ornette Coleman's non-Atlantic stuff: I picked up the first Golden Circle disc this week and holy ******* **** ***! Faces and Places, good God.

Kidd Jordan.

tonight I audition my first Circle recording. Thanks Dave.


I can shut up now.


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Posts: 1721 | From: Silverdale, WA | Registered: Jul 99 | IP: Logged

chrisnick
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Member # 1130
posted February 16, 2002 10:23 PM
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Steve Lacy - Havn't hit a bad one yet. I think he's one of the most underated figures of jazz, and definitely one of the stongest figures of the 80, 90s and today. I'd start with Morning Joy on Hat Art.
Might not put at the top of the list, but I just picked up Clifford Thornton's Freedom and Unity on Atavistic (1967), and it's great.

Would also mention (I don't think they were mentioned above) the early 80's David Murray Octet recordings, especially Ming and Home.


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[Garrison]

JSngry
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Member # 1611
posted February 17, 2002 01:49 AM
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Lot of good recs so far, and there's sure to be more, too many to list all at once, so here's a couple more -
Julius Hemphill - "Flat Out Jump Suite" & "Raw Materials & Residuals". You want GROUP interplay, here it is.

Dewey Redman/Ed Blackwell - "Live In Wilisau" (AKA "Red And Black"). About as good as it gets.

ANYTHING by Kahil El'Zabar's two groups, The Ethnic Heritage Ensemble & Ritual Trio. Again, true GROUP playing.

And the strongest possible seconds for anything w/Threadgill at the helm. This guy is a true composer, and his music is full of personality, originality, humor, and truth. In other word, it's full of LIFE!

There's SO much more. Jazz didn't "die" or get wierd, it stayed current (or at least some of it did), the voice of reality in a supremely unreal world. Those who are either trying to hide something or have something to fear will try to convince you that this stuff is nonsense, "crazy music", and that these cats can't play their instruments. There are a few who sadly do fit that bill, and there are also some artists who use the music to display what I recieve as neurotic, anti-social disaffection. But I don't listen to them, and I don't recommend them either. But there are those who would paint the whole range of expression with a single broad stroke, for whatever reason, and they DESPERATELY want you to believe them.

On the other hand, the Scriptures say that you will know the TRUTH and the truth shall set you FREE, so who you gonna believe?


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Posts: 6681 | From: Tx, USA | Registered: Mar 2001 | IP: Logged

JSngry
Member
Member # 1611
posted February 17, 2002 02:44 AM
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Lot of good recs so far, and there's sure to be more, too many to list all at once, so here's a couple more -
Julius Hemphill - "Flat Out Jump Suite" & "Raw Materials & Residuals". You want GROUP interplay, here it is.

Dewey Redman/Ed Blackwell - "Live In Wilisau" (AKA "Red And Black"). About as good as it gets.

ANYTHING by Kahil El'Zabar's two groups, The Ethnic Heritage Ensemble & Ritual Trio. Again, true GROUP playing.

And the strongest possible seconds for anything w/Threadgill at the helm. This guy is a true composer, and his music is full of personality, originality, humor, and truth. In other word, it's full of LIFE!

There's SO much more. Jazz didn't "die" or get wierd, it stayed current (or at least some of it did), the voice of reality in a supremely unreal world. Those who are either trying to hide something or have something to fear will try to convince you that this stuff is nonsense, "crazy music", and that these cats can't play their instruments. There are a few who sadly do fit that bill, and there are also some artists who use the music to display what I recieve as neurotic, anti-social disaffection. But I don't listen to them, and I don't recommend them either. But there are those who would paint the whole range of expression with a single broad stroke, for whatever reason, and they DESPERATELY want you to believe them.

On the other hand, the Scriptures say that you will know the TRUTH and the truth shall set you FREE, so who you gonna believe?


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Posts: 6681 | From: Tx, USA | Registered: Mar 2001 | IP: Logged

Chuck Nessa
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Member # 422
posted February 17, 2002 05:49 AM
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quote:
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Originally posted by lukrion:
Hmmm, not a betting man and I've never played the machines in any casinos. Do three lemons signify the jackpot, or...
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In this case, I hope it is jackpot. If you email me at cnessa@earthlink.net, I will send catalog, info, etc.


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Posts: 1504 | From: Whitehall, MI | Registered: Oct 1999 | IP: Logged

shrugs
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Member # 356
posted February 17, 2002 06:49 AM
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I put on Frank Lowe's The Flam yesterday after posting and I gotta say it's one of those sleeper sessions from the 70's. Incredible tunes!!!
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ralphie_boy
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Member # 1410
posted February 17, 2002 07:44 AM
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quote:
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Originally posted by shrugs:
I put on Frank Lowe's The Flam yesterday after posting and I gotta say it's one of those sleeper sessions from the 70's. Incredible tunes!!!
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Is this in the same vein as BLACK BEINGS (which by-the-way, is another classic IMO)??


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Posts: 503 | From: New York | Registered: Jan 2001 | IP: Logged

Joe
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Member # 118
posted February 17, 2002 09:42 AM
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What, no mention of Roscoe Mitchell's SOUND? Maybe the most significant post-1965 "jazz" recording.
Here's a sleeper for you: tenor / alto sax player Keshavan Maslak. Try LOVED BY MILLIONS on Leo (trio with John Lindberg and Sunny Murray), BLASTER MASTER (duets with Charles Moffett), and NOT TO BE A STAR (duets with Paul Bley), both on Black Saint.

Finally:
| Billy Bang
| Billy Bang

and, oh yeah, Billy Bang.

BANGCEPTION, RAINBOW GLADIATOR, OUTLINE NO. 12, LIVE AT CARLOS I, VALVE NO. 10, COMMANDMENT, BIG CLIFF (w/ the Ritual Trio), VIETNAM: THE AFTERMATH...

"Avant-Garde's got soul, too" -- so I've been told. Then again, the more I listen, the more clear it becomes to me that I have no idea what the so-called "avant-garde" is. Except maybe a phantom. Or a chimera.


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Posts: 3370 | From: Dallas, TX USA | Registered: Apr 99 | IP: Logged

sk@@ter
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Member # 1702
posted February 17, 2002 01:32 PM
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Good suggestions
I think the 1990's will be considered in years to come as an impt decade for the avant-garde - with the realisation of talents as diverse as William Parker, Die Like A Dog Quartet,Matthew Shipp, David S Ware's Quartet releases, Tim Berne (still truckin'!!), European youngsters like Sax man Mats Gustafsson, the AALY trio & Ken Vandermark and the existence of mavericks like Jim O'Rourke, the emergence of indie labels like HatHut, Omnitone,, Wobbly Rail, Thirtsty Ear,AUM, etc etc this all added up for me to presenting an optimistic outlook for new jazz (especially the intersecting trajectory of alt.rock and figures like AALY Trio and William Parker - which sees young rock audience digging new jazz sounds!!!)

what do you guys think?

cheers

sk@@ter


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Posts: 477 | From: Auckland,New Zealand | Registered: Apr 2001 | IP: Logged

ED!
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Member # 1633
posted February 17, 2002 04:55 PM
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I tend to agree with you greg, especially William Parker. He continues to really impress and seems to be consistently turning out good music along with 'Ethnic Heritage Ensemble'
However, I could care less what rock audiences like in the way of jazz.

One more rec for Frank Lowe..."Live from Soundscape"....yeaaah!


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Posts: 529 | From: Cicero,NY | Registered: Apr 2001 | IP: Logged

Doug
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Member # 67
posted February 17, 2002 05:22 PM
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John Lindberg's "Bounce" is excellent.
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Posts: 29 | From: Englewood, CO, USA | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged

David Ayers
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Member # 862
posted February 17, 2002 05:41 PM
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My two favorites outside the Coleman Atlantics are both on Fontana and very rare:
The New York Contemporary Five, Consequences
The New York Art Quartet, Mohawk

I'm sorry to keep mentioning them but - they are my favorites, I can't help it!

PS Is any of this still avant garde? The basic principles of this music seem to have been set nearly 40 years ago!

[ February 17, 2002: Message edited by: David Ayers ]


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Posts: 1002 | From: England | Registered: May 2000 | IP: Logged

lukrion
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Member # 1156
posted February 17, 2002 06:43 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by David Ayers:

PS Is any of this still avant garde? The basic principles of this music seem to have been set nearly 40 years ago!
[ February 17, 2002: Message edited by: David Ayers ]


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Thats the problem with definitions. They are great when you know nothing, to help you stay on track. After that they seem to get in the way.

Ed Blackwells style, even when playing with Don Cherry, is so reminiscent of New Orleans, 2nd line drumming, another 40 years before!

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Of course one can 'go to far' and except in directions in which we can go too far there is no interest in going at all; and only those who will risk going 'too far' can possibly find out just how far one can go. -T.S. Eliot


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Posts: 1637 | From: Pa, USA | Registered: Oct 2000 | IP: Logged

sk@@ter
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Member # 1702
posted February 17, 2002 07:36 PM
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Yes - labels are always gonna be limiting but I think we all know what we mean...
& although most alt rock leaves me cold too ED (Wilco and a few others excepted)I think jazz needs young kids to get into it or else it will eventually just be a museum piece...

cheers

sk@@ter


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Posts: 477 | From: Auckland,New Zealand | Registered: Apr 2001 | IP: Logged

glueyporch
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Member # 2126
posted February 17, 2002 09:54 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by sk@@ter:
Yes - labels are always gonna be limiting but I think we all know what we mean...
& although most alt rock leaves me cold too ED (Wilco and a few others excepted)I think jazz needs young kids to get into it or else it will eventually just be a museum piece...

cheers

sk@@ter


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we're working on it! well... i just turned 20 and find that most my friends are into at least a bit of what i listen to... but we'll see....
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Posts: 125 | From: CA | Registered: Sep 2001 | IP: Logged

shrugs
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Member # 356
posted February 18, 2002 05:19 AM
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ROVA Saxophone Quartet's Ascension is a great one. with a great rendition of Welcome by a quartet before they let it all hang out.
Larry Ochs is an UNSUNG saxophonist. As are the rest of ROVA. Rova's BINGO is a great place to start. I think a few of the cd's may be on sale at cybermusic.
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ED!
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Member # 1633
posted February 18, 2002 03:09 PM
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greg,
You're point is well taken and I guess I would have to agree with you. And, that would be a positive if more youth gravitated to a little more challenging music.

BTW, at age 49, I still dig Hendrix !! Yet, most rock music leaves me cold too.


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Posts: 529 | From: Cicero,NY | Registered: Apr 2001 | IP: Logged

shrugs
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Member # 356
posted February 18, 2002 05:08 PM
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play them Other Brothers from the Peter Brotzmann Tentet boxset!!!
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Posts: 3466 | From: back east | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged

sah
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Member # 2691
posted February 19, 2002 11:14 AM
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getting back to sleepers (if i may), jimmy lyons' OTHER AFTERNOONS on byg/actuel (just reissued on vinyl) is one of my absolute favorites. lyons, lester bowie, alan silva and andrew cyrille - & they pull it off even better than it looks on paper...
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[Garrison]

Chuck Nessa
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Member # 422
posted February 19, 2002 11:24 AM
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Lester told me this date was the only Byg/Actuel date he was on that had rehearsals.
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Posts: 1504 | From: Whitehall, MI | Registered: Oct 1999 | IP: Logged

Brandon Burke
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posted February 19, 2002 11:40 AM
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quote:
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Originally posted by Chuck Nessa:
Lester told me this date was the only Byg/Actuel date he was on that had rehearsals.
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Posts: 252 | From: Lawrence, KS | Registered: Feb 2002 | IP: Logged

Robert Castle
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posted February 19, 2002 11:40 AM
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To me, this is like asking "What are the top jazz picks?" It's the kind of question that gets harder to answer the more music I discover. And it's compounded by the fact that while it's fairly easy to point to the great artists of the "avant garde", it's difficult to say THIS is a representational album by a particular artist. Because all the great artists change, which is part of what makes them great. Miles isn't the only one who changed, and everyone here knows how hard it would be to pick a representational, much less greatest, record to recommend by Miles! On the other hand, saying "Get everything by Anthony Braxton" is a fairly worthless (not to mention nearly impossible!) suggestion.
That said, I'll just list a few I've been digging and that should be available:

Parker/Guy/Lytton/Crispell: After Appleby
McPhee/Drake: Emancipation Proclamation
Braxton: Basel, Dortmund
Brotzmann: Chicago Octet/Tentet (3 CD set)
Lacy: Morning Joy, Cliches
Hemingway: Slamadam


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Posts: 177 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jul 2000 | IP: Logged

chrisnick
Member
Member # 1130
posted February 19, 2002 12:41 PM
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Is that Brotzmann set still available?
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Posts: 204 | From: Burbank, CA US | Registered: Sep 2000 | IP: Logged

shrugs
Member
Member # 356
posted February 19, 2002 12:47 PM
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www.cadencebuilding.com
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Posts: 3466 | From: back east | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged

Joe Christmas
Member
Member # 119
posted February 19, 2002 03:18 PM
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cheapest place for the Brotzmann 8tet/10tet box, to my knowledge is http://www.drimala.com
Good American label representation at Drimala, and arguably at the best prices. They have sales, some of which are continuous (buy two, 15% off, or something like that), and often are postpaid. A few of the better labels they distribute, IMO:

Atavistic
AUM Fidelity
Eremite
Boxholder
OkkaDisk
Wobbly Rail

and others...

Red Toucan/Cactus
Random Scoustics
Spool
Ayler Records


If you subscribe to the labels' mailing lists, where applicable, you will find that they often offer better deals than their distributors.

But for all things avant/free/blahblahblah, http://www.cadencebuilding.com is the place to order the more difficult to find recordings.


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Posts: 1721 | From: Silverdale, WA | Registered: Jul 99 | IP: Logged

skeith
Member
Member # 745
posted February 20, 2002 06:31 AM
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Hey Chuck,
Is Snurdy McGurdy on CD yet? I love that record!


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Posts: 323 | From: | Registered: Mar 2000 | IP: Logged

Chuck Nessa
Member
Member # 422
posted February 20, 2002 07:38 AM
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Not yet.
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Posts: 1504 | From: Whitehall, MI | Registered: Oct 1999 | IP: Logged

thomas64
Junior Member
Member # 2205
posted February 20, 2002 08:54 AM
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I really enjoyed some of Sonny Simmons' recordings from the '60's. "Manhattan Egos" has been released on CD. This includes the original LP with Barbara Donald on trumpet, and new material with Michael White on violin. I also have a vinyl reissue of the ESP recording "Staying on the Watch."
I'm also going to mention Sam Rivers' recent big band recordings "Inspiration" and "Culmination."

William Parker's "The Peach Orchard" is a favorite of mine.

Also, Hamiett Bluiett's "Im/possible To Keep" with Don Pullen and Fred Hopkins on India Navigation.

One set that really sent me exploring in a number of directions was the three-disk anthology "Wildflowers" on Knit Classics, collecting a variety of live performances from the mid-70's.


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Posts: 5 | From: | Registered: Oct 2001 | IP: Logged

Cali
Member
Member # 2102
posted February 20, 2002 08:55 AM
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Interstellar Space - Trane
Point of Departure - Andrew Hill
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Posts: 356 | From: Los Angeles, CA USA | Registered: Sep 2001 | IP: Logged

lukrion
Member
Member # 1156
posted April 27, 2002 07:43 AM
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So I've been really diggin into Air. Got Air Time on disc, and a few records.
I'm Planing on the NESSA Art box fairly soon, but in the meantime I'm thinking about Hemphill and Sunny Murray and New York Art Quartet as places to explore next. I'm just randomly going through the list and the other extensive Avant Guarde lovers only list.

Are there any sites that might specialize in a few soundbites of this music? I want to diversify before I concentrate on each artist specifically.

--------------------

Of course one can 'go to far' and except in directions in which we can go too far there is no interest in going at all; and only those who will risk going 'too far' can possibly find out just how far one can go. -T.S. Eliot


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Posts: 1637 | From: Pa, USA | Registered: Oct 2000 | IP: Logged

ralphie_boy
Member
Member # 1410
posted April 27, 2002 09:46 AM
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You should definitely pick up the New York Art Quartet on ESP-Disk. Highly recommended.
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Posts: 503 | From: New York | Registered: Jan 2001 | IP: Logged

Dan Eisler
Member
Member # 1295
posted April 27, 2002 11:19 AM
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Speaking of the Nessa Art Ensemble box set, is there a Web site with audio samples of it?
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Posts: 90 | From: Austin, TX | Registered: Dec 2000 | IP: Logged

Chuck Nessa
Member
Member # 422
posted April 27, 2002 12:09 PM
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None that I'm aware of.
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Posts: 1504 | From: Whitehall, MI | Registered: Oct 1999 | IP: Logged

EPISTROPHY
Member
Member # 3096
posted May 02, 2002 02:23 AM
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Epistrophy's top ten:
1.Jaki Byard-Blues for smoke(CANDID)
2.Prince Lasha Quintet-THE CRY!(CONTEMPORARY)
3.Dewey Redman-Tarik)ACTUEL)
4.Sun Ra-My brother the wind(EVIDENCE)
5.Horace Tapscott-sessions vol.8(NIMBUS)
6.Larry Young-LOVE CRY WANT(NEWJAZZ.COM)
7.Abdullah Ibrahim-BANYANA(ENJA)
8.Art ensemble of chicago-a jackson in your house/message to our folks(ACTUEL)
9.Steve Lacy-Disposability(KDC)
10.Henry Grimes-THE CALL(ESP)

I highly recommend the above listed albums as essential to any (out mans) collection. These are albums that I've believe once heard elicit repeat play from the listener, in my opinion.


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Posts: 14 | From: LOS ANGELES | Registered: Apr 2002 | IP: Logged



All times are PT (US)

[Garrison]

Here is the second thread:

I had the good fortune to find a copy (CD) of Arthur Doyle's Alabama Feelings recently. I've been looking for this ever since I read Thurston Moore's article regarding his opinion of the 10 Best Free/Avant Garde Jazz recordings.
He describes the sound of this one as "ghosts and spirits being chased through a hall of mirrors" and I think that pretty much sums it up.

I really like this one. Anyone else ever hear this?


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Posts: 514 | From: New York | Registered: Jan 2001 | IP: Logged

Stefan Wood
Member
Member # 188
posted February 16, 2002 04:35 AM
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Can you post Moore's entire list? I'm curious to see what were his other favorites.
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Posts: 1119 | From: Chevy Chase, Maryland USA | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged

ralphie_boy
Member
Member # 1410
posted February 16, 2002 04:46 AM
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www.evol.org/free.jazz.html
I don't know if the site is still active, so here's his list:

1) DAVE BURRELL - Echo
2) MILFORD GRAVES/DON PULLEN - Nommo
3) ARTHUR DOYLE Plus 4 - Alabama Feelings
4) SONNY MURRAY - Sonny's Time Now
5) THE RIC COLBECK QUARTET - The Sun Is Coming Up
6) JOHN TCHICAI AND CADENTIA NOVA DANICA - Afrodisiaca
7) RASHIED ALI/FRANK LOWE - Duo Exchange
8) PETER BROTZMANN SEXTET/QUARTET - Nipples
9) MARZETTE WATTS ENSEMBLE (Savoy)
10)MARION BROWN - In Summerhausen
BLACK ARTISTS GROUP - In Paris,Aries 1973
FRANK WRIGHT QUARTET - Uhuru Na Umoja
DR. UMEZU-SEIKATSU KOJYO IINKI
CECIL TAYLOR - Indent, part 2

Note that he purposely omitted classics such as the those on the ESP-Disk catalog, Ornette's work, etc.., focusing only on items that were hard to find at the time of writing.

[ February 16, 2002: Message edited by: ralphie_boy ]


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JSngry
Member
Member # 1611
posted February 16, 2002 04:59 AM
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Of Doyle's most recent work, I've only heard the "Songbook" CD, and, although I know where the cat's coming from and what he's getting at, I don't know that what he does and an endorsement from Thurston Moore necessarily adds up on either side of the equation.
(I hope that this doesn't disqualify me from being considered an "Avant Garde Lover", but Doyle's current trip, or what I've heard of it, seems more powerful as folk art than as a cachet of hip, and from reading interviews w/him on the web, I strongly get the impression that he's a willing partner to his own iconization amongst those who don't necessarily have the widest frame of reference from which to draw. OTOH, I haven't heard this particular CD, so perhaps a hearfelt and sincere "SCREW YOU SANGREY" is in order.)


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Posts: 6828 | From: Tx, USA | Registered: Mar 2001 | IP: Logged

ralphie_boy
Member
Member # 1410
posted February 16, 2002 05:10 AM
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"SCREW YOU SANGREY"
Just kidding!! Actually, I read that his later work was more eclectic and more of a combination of soul, jazz and pop.

This baby (Alabama Feelings) however, is the real deal! Recorded in 1978, it draws from Alyler, Frank Wright, Brotzmann and the like. Free, wild, and very emotional. I think you'd like it.


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shrugs
Member
Member # 356
posted February 16, 2002 06:06 AM
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Doyle is a hack IMO. I gave away one cd I had and two tapes were sent to me from a friend in Sweden and I could hardly stand to listen to them.
and why Thurston Moore is considered an expert on the subject is beyond me....
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Posts: 3564 | From: back east | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged

shrugs
Member
Member # 356
posted February 16, 2002 06:11 AM
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rb, are you the person who posted that you had 0 post 70's sessions?
just curious.......
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Posts: 3564 | From: back east | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged

ralphie_boy
Member
Member # 1410
posted February 16, 2002 07:46 AM
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Yeah that's me. I added some more to the collection recently though, buying the Woody Shaw Mosaic in addition to the Doyle.
Most of my purchases tend to be "pre-70s" however. I know there's plenty of good material out there, especially avant garde which I need to get to at some point - the whole 70s NYC loft scene comes to mind, as well as Shipp, Parker, Bang and that whole scene.


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shrugs
Member
Member # 356
posted February 16, 2002 07:50 AM
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cool, there is definately a lot out there.
lukrion started another thread so a discussuion of essentials can be hashed over.
I can try and concentrate on some 70's and beyond over there.
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Posts: 3564 | From: back east | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged

ralphie_boy
Member
Member # 1410
posted February 16, 2002 07:50 AM
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quote:
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Originally posted by shrugs:
and why Thurston Moore is considered an expert on the subject is beyond me....
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Don't know - apparently he really digs the stuff and since he's a "minor" celebrity, he can get his opinions out.


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Posts: 514 | From: New York | Registered: Jan 2001 | IP: Logged

Dmitry
Member
Member # 66
posted February 16, 2002 09:16 AM
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Doyle
remember that boil?
stop
molesting that horn
drop
wish I never was born
ears bleed
...
indeed



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Posts: 1723 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 99 | IP: Logged

JSngry
Member
Member # 1611
posted February 16, 2002 12:25 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by shrugs:
Doyle is a hack IMO.
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A close call to be sure, but I can give him a little benefit of a lot of doubt only because I've known a few guys like this before - guys who get so far into playing and singing ONLY whatever strange songs and sounds that they have floating around in their heads that they soon become residents of a parallel universe, one that only they live in. They're not really "crazy" per se, but they're definitely "eccentric" in a big way.

The thing is, you usually find them either way back in the country or somewhere on the street, NOT being hailed as "messiahs" or "masters" - that kind of talk and promotion irks me a little bit, because what they're doing is usually so far removed in intent from that whole promotional mindset. It REALLY irks me when the player (or singer, for that matter), buys into it and begins to believe the hype themselves.

Doyle was around in the early days of the AACM, wasn't he? So I don't doubt that he had, at least at one time, more going on than the admitedly very limited sampling of his more recent work that I've heard. But to be honest, that "Songbook" disc struck me a very much being of the "parallel universe" type thing, and when I did a web search on him, I was more than a little surprised to see that there are indeed those who hail him as a "master", and I wonder what the hell they're talking about, listening to, and thinking!

If this would have been some cat they dug up in the country or found playing on the street, it would make for an interesting take, but this cat's going on out there and making gigs just like everybody else. More power to him, but I just don't think that he's anything more than a "parallel universe eccentric". That's good enough for what it is, but it ain't anything MORE than that either. In a world where Anthony Braxton, Roscoe Mitchell and many others are still playing their instruments with poise and command, it's almost an insult to claim otherwise!


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Posts: 6828 | From: Tx, USA | Registered: Mar 2001 | IP: Logged

Chuck Nessa
Member
Member # 422
posted February 16, 2002 01:15 PM
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Doyle was not associated with the AACM at any time. The first I became aware of him was the first lp. Charles Tyler gave me a copy - it was on his Ak Ba label. Charles' descriptions led me to believe something similar to Jim's parallel universe observation.
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Posts: 1531 | From: Whitehall, MI | Registered: Oct 1999 | IP: Logged

thejosephboys
Member
Member # 480
posted February 16, 2002 02:49 PM
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Agreed. ALABAMA FEELING, as it turns out, was on Ak Ba so that might be the record you're thinking of, Chuck. I've always considered this to be more of an outsider art LP than jazz. Was Beefheart rock'n'roll? Don might disagree. I mean that in the best way, you understand. I certainly think it would be foolish to call Doyle a master but, similarly, I think it would be foolish to call him a hack. The fact that he would've likely been completely lost at a late-night cutting session with Hank Mobley doesn't take anything away from the guy, in my opinion. He just did--and I suppose is still doing--his own thing and it seems to me that perhaps it's music inspired by jazz rather than actually "jazz". And does that (hypothetical) fact that it might not be "jazz" make it illegitimate? I don't think so. Why can't music just be music? Let the guy do what he wants and express himself. If you ask me, it makes the world a much more interesting and beautiful place. Hell, I'd rather hear that than a bunch of players maintaining and nurturing the canon.
[ February 16, 2002: Message edited by: thejosephboys ]


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Posts: 509 | From: Lawrence, KS, USA | Registered: Nov 1999 | IP: Logged

[Garrison]

ralphie_boy
Member
Member # 1410
posted February 17, 2002 03:38 AM
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Wow, I didn't expect to stir up all this controversy with this post. Actually, ALABAMA FEELINGS is all that I've heard from this guy and again, I think It's pretty good.
It's hard to comment on the issue of him being a hack on the basis of this recording -to me, I see similarities to the work of Alyer, Brotzmann, Wright, NYAQ, Murray, etc.. in this one. Maybe if I heard him playing something more "inside", it would be more obvious.


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Posts: 514 | From: New York | Registered: Jan 2001 | IP: Logged

Joe
Member
Member # 118
posted February 17, 2002 09:25 AM
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Doyle is pure street music. From what I've heard. You use the street to get from one place to another, you can hang on the street to see what's going down, and you can even play in the street. But it's not an easy place to live full-time.
If you catch my meaning.


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Posts: 3408 | From: Dallas, TX USA | Registered: Apr 99 | IP: Logged

JSngry
Member
Member # 1611
posted February 17, 2002 04:08 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by ralphie_boy:
I see similarities to the work of Alyer, Brotzmann, Wright, NYAQ, Murray, etc.. in this one.
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The similarites are superficial. The players you mention all have "traditioanl" or "convetional" command of the instrument and it's techniques. What I've heard of Doyle tells me that he can only do what he does, and it is a quite limited vocabulary that he uses, AND, unlike a perhaps equally "unschooled" and/or "intuitive" "blues" player, he doesn't really have a lot of the nuance that would enable him to do a lot with a little. That's just my impression, and of course I'm more than willing to concede that Doyle's music has validity as an individual's totally personal expression. That should go without saying.

On the other hand, it's also worth asking when an expression becomes SO personal, so interior in origin, that it has no real long-lasting relevance to anybody besides the person expressing it. It's an argument that has often been used to dismiss the "avant-garde" in blanket terms, so it's not one that I bring up lightly or carelessly.

But it IS a point worth considering, I believe, and an artist needs to ask it of themself from time to time too. Trane certainly did. The misuse of the argument as a tool for reactionaries or cowards should not obscure the validity that it does in fact contain, and for me, it applies to Doyle. To be fair, a few of his songs have lyrics that sound vaguely reminiscent of playground or double-dutch ditties, so perhaps in his mind he's reaching for the "inner child" state of innocent purity. Perhaps. But he's a grown man, and the failure to hear any "adult" "maturity" at any level in his music is discomforing to me. Even Brian Wilson, supposedly the archtypical "adult child" let on every once in a while that he KNEW the painful realities of his life, and that his fantasy world was based on creating a viable alternative to that pain. I don't get that layer of acknowledgement from Doyle.

Bottom line, I suppose is that everybody finds what they want and need wherever it occurs. I'd like to hear "Alabama Feelings", because I think there might be something more there than there is on the "Songbook" album I've heard. But, based SOLELY on "Songbook", I'd have to say that Doyle might be the jazz equivalent of Wild-Man Fisher - inhabitant of a truly paralell universe, one not without moments of interest and provocation, but also one who ultimately leaves the listener with an uncomfortable sense of voyeuristic titilation rather than a shared experience of a deeply personal and unique artistic vision, and that kinda bothers me.

But maybe I'm wrong?

[ February 17, 2002: Message edited by: JSngry ]


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Posts: 6828 | From: Tx, USA | Registered: Mar 2001 | IP: Logged

Chuck Nessa
Member
Member # 422
posted February 17, 2002 04:20 PM
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No, I think you have it nailed. You should hear Alabama Feeling.
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Posts: 1531 | From: Whitehall, MI | Registered: Oct 1999 | IP: Logged

thejosephboys
Member
Member # 480
posted February 17, 2002 08:04 PM
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Am I getting a Jad Fair/Daniel Johnston/Jonathan Richman vibe out of what you're saying, Jim?
BTW: Check your private messages.


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Posts: 509 | From: Lawrence, KS, USA | Registered: Nov 1999 | IP: Logged

JSngry
Member
Member # 1611
posted February 17, 2002 10:16 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by thejosephboys:
Am I getting a Jad Fair/Daniel Johnston/Jonathan Richman vibe out of what you're saying, Jim?
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Haven't heard Jad Fair (old fart that I am ), but with Johnston you get a little hint every so often that he knows what the deal is, even if it's out of his control to change it. With Richman, once you've heard the first Modern Lovers album, ANYTHING after that HAS to be viewed as "conceptual" (in a good way). That's all cool w/me because it's a big world, and there's as many "adult" viewpoints as there are adults.

But w/Doyle, the best comparison I can make (besides Wild Man Fisher), is a hypothetical one - let's say that I get obsessed with humming to myself, and develop a little variety of tunes to hum and a few ways to vary the tone of my humming. I get DEEP off into it, to the point of blocking out everything else - all I do is hum my little variety of hums and shut out everything else. I get so far into my humming that it begins to speak to me in a way that resembles spirituality - that's how off into I get. Since I'm getting to God (or so I think - maybe I am or maybe I'm not) through what I'm doing, I don't see any need to develop any new tunes to hum or ways to vary what I do. In other words, I get lost in a very limited trip entirely of my own construction.

Does this make me a nut? Not necessarily - I can still function in the everyday world, more or less - most people will look at me kinda weird, but I can get by, and I pose no harm to anybody.

But does that make me a great artist, or even a visionary? Not in any way that I can see, because A)I don't have any point of reference for what, how, or why I'm doing other than whatever internal quirk prompted me to start doing it in the first place; and B)other than the one limited thing I can do, what ELSE can I do?

Now, sure, there may be some people who find great beauty in my humming, and they might view it, and by extension, me, as a GREAT artist, a voice for their souls, etc. And it might be true to a very small degree - one or two things that I do might hit on something universal and/or profound. But does that mean that everything I hum is profound art, or that every time I do it it's a genius in action? No - it just means that I've stumbled onto one or two very specific things that are the tip of a MUCH bigger iceberg, and if I don't dig at least a little deeper, I'm kinda like the guy who walks out the front door, takes one or two steps, turns around, walks back in, and feels like he's been around the world.

But always has been, and always will be, an audience that delights in personal eccentricity. A portion of that audience might have a legitimate interest in what creates the quirks, and what the quirks say about and how they relate to the bigger picture, but most of them just get off on the freakishness of it all. Witness the audiences for G.G. Allin, or, for that matter, the carnival freak shows. What is behind all this I don't have the insight to say (it's probably a voyeurism trip of some sorts, but I'm no shrink), but for me, a little goes a LONG way.

As does Arthur Doyle's music.


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Posts: 6828 | From: Tx, USA | Registered: Mar 2001 | IP: Logged

thejosephboys
Member
Member # 480
posted February 17, 2002 10:28 PM
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I have yet to disagree with you, Jim. I hope we're on the same page there. I was just thowing out some other names that might make this discussion clearer to others and perhaps even to ourselves. After all, most folks have definately not heard ALABAMA FEELING (or Doyle in gereral). My only point was: Am I glad he did what he did? Absolutely. I love that kind of unbridled human expresion. Do I listen to ALABAMA FEELING with any regularity? No. As you hopefuly noticed above I do have problems with taking this "appreciation" in an uncomfortable direction. Uncomfortable for me, anyway. And apparently you as well. Actualy, I wrote my MA thesis on Anglo appreciation of the Wu-Tang Clan. A fascination of mine--as is hip-hop culture in general.
Also, and regarding Jad Fair: I don't know how old you (think you) are ( ) but the first Half Japanese record came out in 1981.


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Posts: 509 | From: Lawrence, KS, USA | Registered: Nov 1999 | IP: Logged

JSngry
Member
Member # 1611
posted February 17, 2002 10:44 PM
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1981? I was still young then, but old farthood wan't that far off...
Yeah, I've heard of him, and have a general "impression" of what he does, but in 1981, I was WAY off into hip-hop, funk, and the continuing (eternal?) jazz odyssey. I had a punk/new-wave sojurn for a bit around 76-79, but pretty much set it aside afterwards.

Trying to understand EVERYTHING can get a little, uh, DIFFICULT, if you know what I mean...


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Posts: 6828 | From: Tx, USA | Registered: Mar 2001 | IP: Logged

David Ayers
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Member # 862
posted February 18, 2002 03:06 AM
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The only Doyle I have predates Alabama Song. He appears along with Hugh Glover on Milford Graves' 'Babi' recorded 3-20-1976. Its a badly recorded racket, fun though I suppose, and I was about to go for another Doyle - this one with Sunny Murray on Ayler records - called Live at Glenn Miller Cafe. Has anyone heard this? I am always up for a bit of genial saxonoise but I need to be spared the eccentric vocals.
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Posts: 1043 | From: England | Registered: May 2000 | IP: Logged

doubleg
Member
Member # 2285
posted February 18, 2002 05:15 AM
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Very interesting debate. I must admit I haven't heard "Alabama Feelings" and probably wouldn't want to listen to it. My only acqaintance with one Arthur Doyle was on an early Noah Howard record on Freedom (was it called "The Ark"? I can't remember). He used his solo space for screetching along on one, well, note or something, which contrasted quite nicely with Noah Howard's rather finely crafted solos, but on the other hand wore me out even in that short duration. If that listening experience is enough to build judgement on, I wouldn't say Doyle can play the saxophone, but I would say the same about Peter Brötzmann. And so what? If ones technical ability suits ones artistic ends, that's perfect with me.
It seems that Arthur Doyle belongs to a line of "cult figures", who get hailed first and foremost because of their obscurity. Thurston Moore gets caught in this trap. Look at his list and you see ten almost impossible to find LPs (okay, at least until recently), which tell more about the size of Moore's record collection than of any musical or historical relevance. On the other hand I wouldn't knock Thurston Moore's understanding of free jazz or free music altogether. At least he has recorded with Evan Parker who definitely is no slouch on sax.


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Posts: 53 | From: bremen, germany | Registered: Nov 2001 | IP: Logged

uli
Member
Member # 417
posted February 27, 2002 10:54 AM
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quote:
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Originally posted by David Ayers:
The only Doyle I have predates Alabama Song. He appears along with Hugh Glover on Milford Graves' 'Babi' recorded 3-20-1976. Its a badly recorded racket, fun though I suppose, .
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This is an interesting discussion for me too. The above quoted album is the only thing i've heard and agree that because of the recording you can hardly hear or at lest discern any of the horns. But I've now read soo much bad stuff about Doyle that I want to hear something more!

Thurston Moore i've heard in a couple of "jazz settings" (once in a trio with Kondo & Jaap Blonks) and the most i can say is that his music did not hum to me neither.

[ February 27, 2002: Message edited by: uli ]

[Garrison]

Done!

O.k. I apologize for clogging this thread up, but it was too good not to share.

I've been picking off these lists for about a year now.