Sacd??

[gregk]

So, I notcie that BestBuy and CircuitCity are not stocking the lower end Sony DVD/SACD combos anymore. Does this mean that they are giving up on the format or is this just a transition period to newer models or something like that? I've been waiting to buy one, now I just might wait a little longer

[vibes]

Best Buy will be bringing in lower-end Pioneer DVD/DVD-A/SACD players this summer. You should still be able to find the Sony 755 at some stores. Best Buy did stop procuring them from Sony early this year. I have the 755 and have been pleased with it, other than the fact that it doesn't show the track time when you play MP3's. Sound is fine to me, but I'm no audiophile. It's a great lower-end machine.

[gregk]

I wonder how the Pioneer DVD-A/SACD will sound compared to the Sony NS-755

[jomina]

SACD is dying. DVD will win. Neither are worth the effort (IMMHO). Get yourself a decent redbook player and enjoy the music.

[Claude]

I don´t think Sony is giving up. New SACD player models are about to be presented soon.

But I doubt whether cheap SACD players make sense. Even Sony is now moving towards hybrid SACDs, so it doesn´t need SACD capability to be able to play those discs (for example if there is a need for a secondary player).

SACDs still cost far more than CDs when it comes to jazz reissues, which are sold (and often discounted) at mid price on CD and at full price on SACD. Cheap players do note really do SACD justice, so why buy expensive software and save on the hardware, just to hear almost no difference to regular CDs?

[jomina]

er, I think you will find that Sony are indeed beginnning the long road to extracting themselves from SACD.
DVD is where the money and economies of scale are.
Apart from perhaps the transport mechanism, a good SACD player should cost pretty much the same as a good CDP to make. Virtually all the important parts can be the same (opamps, DAC, power stage etc). Some bits ( :rolleyes: ) are different, but even these are not very expensive.

[Leeway]

All the Sony ads I see emphasize their DVD players- mostly for home theater. The "masses" are buying DVD because they want them for their home theater rigs, not for any audiophile aspirations. It's all about movies really, not so uch the music. But as for the music, these same buyers are happy to et their DVDs do the job. I don't see them buying SACD in addition. And I don't think universal players are going to become, er, "universal." I think there is still a lot of potential in 24/96 redbook players.

[vibes]

Not only is Sony not doing much promotion for their SACD players, but the electronics stores aren't promoting SACD or DVD-A much either. When I bought the 755, it took me forever to find it. I'm sure that most people that buy it use it primarily as a DVD player, but it wasn't displayed with other DVD players at my local Best Buy. It was in a dark corner in the back of the store, and the store help didn't seem to be very interested in showing me anything about it. The SACD's used to be back there next to the 1-2 players Best Buy carried, but have since been moved up to the front of the store, along with the DVD-A's. I will be watching to see how the new Pioneers are merchandised when they come in later this year.

[Dan Gould]

Originally posted by jomina
SACD is dying. DVD will win. Neither are worth the effort (IMMHO). Get yourself a decent redbook player and enjoy the music.

Can there be any better proof that Greg isn't even lurking here than the fact that this pronouncement has not seen a serious rebuttal, or for that matter a "slice, dice, and tear you a new one" Greg rebuttal?:D

[gregk]

I need a DVD player but I dont watch many movies (more my wife wants one), but I thought I should get one that plays SACD too. It just seems like they are being promoted even less than before now, so maybe it makes sense to wait

[kulu-se-mama]

well, i took the plunge and bought the sony dvp-ns755v this morning. it's a single disc, progressive scan, sacd-dvd player.
the guy at j & r gave me a great price. i figure my stones cd's are just sitting there now without the sacd capabilities, and i need a dvd player before the zeppelin box comes out. the guy at j & r said he has the same player and is very happy with it.
besides, "dark side of the moon" comes out on sacd later this month.

[sideshowbob]

besides, "dark side of the moon" comes out on sacd later this month.

I knew I had a good reason for not being interested in sacd ... :cool:

-- Ian

[gregk]

Originally posted by kulu-se-mama
well, i took the plunge and bought the sony dvp-ns755v this morning. it's a single disc, progressive scan, sacd-dvd player.
the guy at j & r gave me a great price. i figure my stones cd's are just sitting there now without the sacd capabilities, and i need a dvd player before the zeppelin box comes out. the guy at j & r said he has the same player and is very happy with it.
besides, "dark side of the moon" comes out on sacd later this month.

funny, i was thinking of buying that model today too. what's this zeppelin box??

[Bev Stapleton]

Might mean this:

http://www.spincds.com/ledzep.html

[Claude]

The discussion on the future music media format is between SACD and DVD-A (DVD Audio). DVD (Video) is not a high resolution audio format, and the Sony DVD players do not play DVD-A discs (or only the low resolution part of the disc). They are meant as DVD video players.

The future of both SACD and DVD-A doesn't look good, but SACDs currently sell much better than DVD-As (both hard- and software).

Check this page for news on both formats:

http://www.highfidelityreview.com

[Kevin Bresnahan]

Sony has already started putting out their new models, probably why the DVP-NS755-V is getting scarce. Quite honestly, when the 755 came out, the Best Buys & Circuit Cities didn't seem interested in even carrying them I don't believe the Best Buy in Salem, NH ever got them in.

They don't appear to be pulling out... in fact, if anything, they seem to be sticking SACD playback capability into lower & lower models in their priceline. I almost wonder if their next one might even decode DVD-Audio as they seem to have concentrated on getting SACD into DVD players first. Why not decode the high res DVD-Audio?

BTW, I am really digging my Pionee DV-45A combo. The SACD playback is on par with my old Sony machine and I get to spin some oldies rock and roll DVD-Audio discs.

Also, I have to refute one comment made in this thread. SACDs are not more expensive than their CD counterparts, at least up my way. In fact, the latest Police reissues were put out on both CD and SACD (with the greatest hits disc being the only hybrid) and the CDs sell for $15.99 and $17.99 (Synchronocity) while I picked them all up for $11.81 each! Ditto the last batch of UMI SACDs. I got Beck's "Sea Changes" for $11.81 and the CD sells in the same store for $15.99.

Later,
Kevin

[Edward]

I think that the battle is far from over and that it is just a little premature to state that, "SACD is dying." As far as releasing new SACD titles, I think that Sony was contemplating what to do in the wake of Universal's release of all of the ABCKO Rolling Stones titles as ~$18.99 CD/SACD hybrids when Sony's SACD-only titles retailed for a higher price. It appears now that Sony is also embracing the hybrid route for their high profile SACD releases (such as the 15 Bob Dylan reissues due this fall). I think that hybrids are the smart way for the record companies to go at this point. The idea may be that the masses (who generally purchase relatively cheap CD players) will be more inclined to spend a little more to replace their CD players with a CD/SACD/DVD player when the time comes if they already own a few hybrid discs. Of course, you have to consider the fact that most people do not know what either "hybrid" or "SACD" mean.

[jomina]

SACD sales may well outstrip DVD-A sales, but SACD sales are still next to nothing
I hope Sony sticks with SACD, if only because the alternatives (downloadable MP3 or 4) are so unpaletable in terms of quality.
However, MP is where I think the mass market is moving, and Sony think so, too.
Anyway, in the meantime I am happy to stick with redbook CD, 24/96 CD and those big black CDs.
JVC have recently been busily rereleasing a whole load of classic albums remastered using 20-bit XRCD technology. The ones I have heard (not many, yet) sound fantastic.

[Leeway]

I suppose I should be eager to embrace SACD, as I like Jazz, classical, and high-end audio, but I really am not that keen on it, and not necessarily for technical reasons either. Upon reflection, I guess the reason is, that it seems just one more way for the record companies to recycle product, and for the consumer to end up buying the same product over and over again. I also am not impressed by the quality of the SACD players on the market,(SCD-1 aside). Also, I'm not all that excited by Stones and Bob Dylan releases. Hell, they were big when I was a kid- and that was a LONG time ago ;) Right now, I rather give K2, and 24/96 technology a chance.

[Claude]

Originally posted by Kevin Bresnahan

Also, I have to refute one comment made in this thread. SACDs are not more expensive than their CD counterparts, at least up my way. In fact, the latest Police reissues were put out on both CD and SACD (with the greatest hits disc being the only hybrid) and the CDs sell for $15.99 and $17.99 (Synchronocity) while I picked them all up for $11.81 each!

This german online store has Police CDs for 7 Euro (about $7.1)

http://www.zweitausendeins.de/

That´s what I meant. There are plenty of CD bargains around, but hardly any SACD bargains, at least not in Europe. On new releases, the SACD and CD version may be similarly priced, but when it comes to reissues, CDs are mostly midprice and SACDs full price.

I paid 23 Euro for a "Kind of Blue" SACD, which is the cheapest price in Europe (amazon.de). I could have got the latest CD version for 7 Euro (zweitausendeins.de) or 7.5 Euro (amazon.de)

[jomina]

Originally posted by Leeway
Right now, I rather give K2, and 24/96 technology a chance.
Right on the money. K2 can sound bloody marvellous (and the JVC re-releases are K2 not XRCD - oops).

[Claude]

I don't give a damn about what technology the remastering engineer uses, because the decisive factor for a good remastering is the knowhow of the engineer himself.

Steve Hoffman and some others made marvelous remasterings already in the late 80´s (with 16bit technology), and ZYX Germany puts out "24bit remastered" OJC reissues that sound like a copy made on a doubledecker cassette recorder (Red Garland´s "Groovy").

The most import part of the remastering process is how the old master tape is played back. New digital technologies only change the part of the process in which the analog signal from the tapes is digitized. But the rule is: Garbage in, garbage out.

Those "K2", "XRCD", "SBM", "24/96" CD reissues generally sound better than the previous releases because at last the engineers care about the result, whereas in the 80´s the policy was to put everything out on CD as fast as possible, and the public believed the CDs sound exactly like the master tape.

[Mnytime]

Originally posted by gregk


funny, i was thinking of buying that model today too. what's this zeppelin box??


I got advance copies of these and if your a fan (and I personally don't see why anyone isn't :p) you're going to want these.

Of course I would have liked to have seen Hybrid SACD of the 3CD set, but as little official live Zep out there I am not complaining.

I have bootlegs of these performances and the sound as to be expected is a major improvement over the bootlegs.

[Rocket #9]

Originally posted by Kevin Bresnahan
Also, I have to refute one comment made in this thread. SACDs are not more expensive than their CD counterparts, at least up my way.

No objections to your addendum. A little Asian perspective (Thailand and Singapore), though: In the legit market (not that anyone would be crazy enough to pirate jazz CDs) in Thailand SACDs are about twice as expensive as normal,full-price CDs (roughly $22 to $12). In Singapore, SACDs can be ridiculously expensive: I saw the new BOC disc there for about $35. Most are lower, but the 2 to 1 price ratio is still pretty close.

I don't have any axe to grind here, I just wanted to point out that, as Claude noted, prices differ. One dedicated SACDphile who shall remain nameless used to "refute" the SACD-is-too-expensive argument by quoting prices from various websites or certain stores not everyone has access to. Unfortunately, rack prices in Europe and Asia seem to be much higher than in New Hampshire. Online ordering is certainly an option, but with shipping and customs good prices become high prices pretty quickly. I'm interested in SACD, but it's hard to take Sony seriously when they take such a higgledy-piggledy strategy to the global market. After all, Sony is hardly shy about figuring out aggressive marketing startegies for their other products.

By the way, I don't buy the Police and Stones price comparisons (I'm not questioning your figures). Yes, the SACD layer is the thin end of the wedge of mass market acceptance, and so on, but in most ways these releases seem to have been handled as your run of the mill let's-raise-some-more-cash-from-our-back-catalog remasters rather than as the dawning of a new era. The Stones reissues didn't even have any indication on the packaging that they were SACD.

If SACD really sounds better (and some of the audiophile magazines I've been reading recently cast a bit of doubt on this) I'll be happy to adopt, but not until there's more software at a reasonable price. I'm not rooting for SACD's demise, just waiting.

Ed

[jomina]

Originally posted by Claude
I don't give a damn about what technology the remastering engineer uses, because the decisive factor for a good remastering is the knowhow of the engineer himself.

Well, there is more to it than that. Not much, but a bit.
I certainly don't buy CDs because I think they may be engineered/remastered well. My Irakere CDs on Egrem prove that :( Terrible sound, but absolutely fantastic music.


Those "K2", "XRCD", "SBM", "24/96" CD reissues generally sound better than the previous releases because at last the engineers care about the result, whereas in the 80´s the policy was to put everything out on CD as fast as possible, and the public believed the CDs sound exactly like the master tape.
This could well be the crux of the matter. It has been noted before that people who go to the trouble of releasing CDs in "improved" formats are the same ones who take the most care recording the music.
I do think that HDCD and K2 are improvements. Also, engineers seem to understand the strengths and weaknesses of the medium better (maybe? that's pure supposition on my part)
Of course audiophool CDs are something else again, and are generally very very sad (IMMHO).

[Kevin Bresnahan]

Originally posted by Claude
I don't give a damn about what technology the remastering engineer uses, because the decisive factor for a good remastering is the knowhow of the engineer himself.



Very well put. Another good example is the recently released 24bit/96 kHz DAD discs by Classics Records. They put out some great Blue Note titles in this series like Trane's "Blue Train" and Cannonball's "Something Else". You know what? They are very bright and not the greatest sounding discs to my ears. Since I have other discs in the DVD-Audio format (most at higher bit rates) that don't sound so bright, I have to imagine that this is how the remastering engineer wanted them to sound.

Later,
Kevin

[grey]

Originally posted by jomina
SACD sales may well outstrip DVD-A sales, but SACD sales are still next to nothing...

In a general poll released about 6 weeks ago on recent audio and video formats only about 2% of the population were even aware of SACD.

[riverrat]

The whole issue of sound quality of various CD formats, complicated by so many reissues of music recorded decades ago is indeed fascinating. I try to keep track of the various resissues and formats available, and vow, probably hopelessly, that by doing so I will buy the last, definitive version of particular titles and never need to re-buy/upgrade them again.

If I've learned anything by doing so, it's that remastering does indeed have ALOT to do with sound quality. IMO, the whole "bit" issue (i.e. 16, 20, 24-bit remastering) matters too, but it is remarkable to me how good some of the latest 20-bit K2 reissues sound compared to my 24-bit Japanese RVGs, and also to most 20-bit Connoisseur series Blue Notes.

I recently acquired an SACD capable player and frankly I'm hard pressed to hear the difference in sound quality between a top quality 20-bit K2 reissue and an SACD. I freely admit that my speakers may be the limiting factor in my system at this point, and that by upgrading these I might very well hear a difference.

Signed,

Confusled

[vibes]

I confirmed with a source at Best Buy corporate that Best Buy will start selling a Pioneer combo DVD/DVD-A/SACD player this summer. It will be priced at either $299 or $399. Best Buy will also continue carrying one Sony home theater in-a-box with SACD capability. There currently is one in Best Buy stores that sells for $599. It's nice that they're continuing to keep players with this capability available, even though it doesn't appear to have done much for them yet.

[visprashyana]

I completely agree that the art of mastering is the best way in order to evaluate the quality of the music. Everyone is going crazy trying to talk up SACD and DVD-a, but even with the "better" technology, there needs to be time in order to master the art of the new technology. Think about how cd's sounded in the mid-eighties - they were terrible. Now many of the 16 bit cd's sound pretty darn good. The technology is the same, but the art has changed. This will occur with SACD's also.

Companies like Mobile Fidelity have produced great sounding SACD's, but you are going to have to watch the major big house pressings, because they are going to put it out fast in order to sell it - not because it sounds better.

Example, the Police SACD's do not sound very good. I would match the 16-bit box set up against them and I'd be real curious to see which one sounded better. The vinyl clearly beats the socks off of the new SACD Police series, especially the Universal, Vivante, and Nautilus audiophile pressings of the Police. In contrast, the Santana Abraxas is excellent. You'll really have to pay attention to how the remastering is being done so that you won't be disappointed with the new technology. This is the same thing that goes on in vinyl repressings, be careful and find someone who has listened to that particular copy.

[Kevin Bresnahan]

Originally posted by visprashyana
Example, the Police SACD's do not sound very good. I would match the 16-bit box set up against them and I'd be real curious to see which one sounded better.

I agree that these new Police SACDs don't seem to jump out as "vastly improved" but you what? The old, old CDs I have of these dates (issued circa 1984 and manufactured by Denon in Japan) have always sounded pretty good to me. I haven't A/B'ed them yet but I'm not expecting "Wow" if you know what I mean. Maybe these dates were simply well recorded and well preserved so there's less room for improvement?

I can't wait for Tuesday. The SACD of Pink Floyd's "The Dark Side of the Moon" hits the shelves. It'll be interesting to hear if it beats out my MoFi gold Ultradisc.:)

Later,
Kevin

[Claude]

The "Dark Side of the Moon" SACD vs MoFi comparison is an often discussed topic at this moment.

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=2

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/hirez/messages/130395.html

I'm waiting for my copy too, ordered it at www.deepdiscountcd.com for $12

[visprashyana]

I listened to parts of it today and they did a good job on the cd. I think that you guys should most likely be impressed with this release. I only listened to the stereo mix, not the 5.1.

This was yet another example of how the product turned out well because they actually gave the original masters to some real engineers who had plenty of time in order to get the right sound out of the technology. Without a/b tests, I would say the clarity on the SACD is better than the original MFSL cd. I'm waiting to see if they can do any better on the vinyl. The MFSL pressing is pretty darn good.

[Brad]

I'm rather ignorant when it comes to SACD although do from time to time try to follow the debates on this board and others. I've seen references to hybrid SACDs, which I gather is a cross between a conventional cd and SACD. If that's correct, and if I don't have an SACD player, will buying a hybrid generally have improved sound or should I not bother?

[Claude]

A hybrid SACD has backwards compatibility, you can play it on a normal CD player because it has a SACD layer and a CD layer.

The CD layer on a hybrid SACD sounds like a normal CD (same 16bit 44.1kHz PCM technology).

So it only makes sense to buy hybrid SACDs if you plan to buy a SACD player soon and make use of the superior SACD layer on the discs.

[Parkertown]

Brad:

The cd layer of a hybrid disc should hopefully have been given a good remastering job as well. All done at the same time and should offer the best sound capable of the 16 bit/44.1 format. So, you'll have a nice disc, that will become even nicer when you need to upgrade/replace your current cd player.

[RICH]

Originally posted by visprashyana
Example, the Police SACD's do not sound very good. I would match the 16-bit box set up against them and I'd be real curious to see which one sounded better. .
I have heard 3 of the Police SACD discs and I thought they sounded great. I then compared them to the box set and the SACD discs sound a lot better imo.

[shawn·m]

I picked up a CD/SACD player a few months ago and I love the format. I couldn’t agree more about re-mastering being key, and Monk’s 5 by Monk by 5 hybrid makes for an interesting format comparison.

Thad Jones’ cornet always bothered me on the OJC CD. The distortion is especially apparent when played back through headphones, and it’s consistent throughout the recording. Now, Doug Sax re-mastered 5 by Monk both as Redbook and DSD for the hybrid. The Sax Redbook still has that annoying ever-present burr, but while the distortion is still there in DSD, it’s somehow rendered more transparent and much less irritating.

Of course, this is all highly subjective so I’d love to hear if anybody else had the same experience.

The SACD release of Coltrane’s Blue Train has been delayed again. Is this the second or third time Blue Note pushed it back? New date per Acoustic Sounds, Tower and Amazon: 05/20/03. Acoustic Sounds says it’s hybrid stereo, while Tower says it’s SACD-only multi-channel. I’m betting Acoustic Sounds has it right, but we’ll just have to wait and see...’cause Blue Note ain’t talkin’.

[Reinier]

I have test pressings of all the Blue Note (EMI/Capitol) forthcoming SACD's and they are all hybrid/multichannel/stereo apart from the Coltrane which is hybrid/stereo only.
The reason they are pushed back is because of manufacturing problems with the new Crest hybrid/sacd plant in California. So don't blame BN for this and aplaud they are using these new US facilities to boost your ecomony!!!

Cheers and all the best,

Reinier

PS the DSOTM is also from the Crest plant!

[Claude]

How do they sound, Reinier?

Especially Blue Train, compared to the previous "audiophile" reissues (Ultimate Blue Train, MFSL)?

The Blue Note sale at Tower Records (SACDs for $14.24) ends today. :)

[shawn·m]

Thanks for the update, Reinier. I hadn’t heard the delays were due to production problems.

Hmm… I’ve been back and forth on purchasing Dark Side of the Moon on SACD, maybe it’s time to check Hoffman’s site or Audio Asylum for details.

[shawn·m]

Wow! Anybody thinking about picking up DSOM should definitely read this post:

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/hirez/messages/134409.html (cracking disks)

Ok, the link doesn't seem to be working so:

Posted by Michi (A) on April 25, 2003 at 14:21:14

I'll try and get scans of this later:
I've gone through 6 copies of DSOTM and this is what I've found.

All DSOTM SACD discs have this round label on the front explaining the 30th anniversary edition and SACD...

The discs that ARE cracking, this label is black with a blue design in the background under the text. (It appears to be a '3' in a circle - It is very DEEP blue so you have to look hard.)

The discs that are NOT cracking have a SOLID BLACK circular label with NO blue design in the background of the sticker.


Again I'm not talking about the front cover. Both of these are the hybrid SACD, and have the same stained-glass design cover. It is just the decal on the outer shrink wrap that I am talking about.

The ones with the black-only label also have a slightly different jewel case, but that's only evident when opening. The 'pin' in the middle of the case that holds the disc through the spindle hole has less 'teeth' on the black-labeled, non-cracking ones. It's also easier to get them out of the case. (I wonder if this has something to do with it.)

So far, I'm 3 for 3 on this.

-Michi

[Kevin Bresnahan]

My copy of "Dark Side Of The Moon" is cracked in about 5 or 6 places. Shit!

This is bad... very bad. DOTSM was a huge win in the SACD/DVD-Audio "war". I can't imagine the backlash that could happen when they have to recall all of the ones manufactured at the Crest facility. BTW, I called Blue Note and Michael Cuscuna to let them know about this. I am almost positive that they are using Crest for the Blue Note SACDs due out in May.

I just picked up two Analogue Productions SACDs this past weekend: Art Pepper "Meets the Rythm Section" and Cannonball Adderley "You Know What I Mean". Although I've yet to spin them in my SACD player, the redbook CD layer by itself is just incredible! Man, I have never heard Bill Evans' piano so clearly as I could during the piano intro to "Waltz For Debby".

Later,
Kevin

[shawn·m]

Kevin, did Michael say anything about the cause of the delays?

[Soulstation1]

my sacd of dsotm has the black circle on the packaging and seems to be messed up.

my problems with the disc

it took awhile for my player to determine it was a sacd, then it would play for about a half a minute to a minute and stop for a second or two and then continue to play. it did it throughout the whole disc.

so then i thought i'd try in a different slot in my 5 disc changer. same thing it took a while for it to determine what type of disc is was. this time it played the disc as a regular "cd" not sacd.

this is confusing and i was wondering if anyone else has/had this problem.

thanks
ss1 :confused:

ps

the sound on this cd is top notch just with the regular cd mode and my 2 speakers.

[shawn·m]

Please, oh please, let the Blue Train SACD make it to market without these quality control issues. I think I’ll wait to hear what others have to say before purchasing the disk myself.

[Kevin Bresnahan]

Rumors are that the BN SACDs are coming out on Tuesday (5/20) since some people have been able to pick them up in stores that "jump the gun". Apparently Amoeba in SF has been selling them since Thursday of last week. I've been holding off on buying the Norah Jones disc in anticipation of this SACD.

Later,
Kevin

[Claude]

Please post your impressions on the Blue Train SACD as soon as you buy it.

As it is remastered by RVG, I hesitate to order it blindly.

[saintvitus]

One other thing on the DSOTM crack ... Audiophiles are reporting the discs made in the plant that produced those with cracks are superior in sound. No kidding.

[Tanager]

Kevin, replying to a post you made over a month ago re: the original Police CD reissues, I agree, they don't sound half bad at all. Ditto for Peter Gabriel's So. I'd suspect this is at last part because they were all really beautifully recorded, so if there was any deterioration in the remastering process, the end result was still pretty good. I replaced my lost vinyl of Zenyatta and Ghost with the new 24-bit (I think) digipak reissues - as you know from our conversations on JC, I'm still waiting before leaping into the waters of any new fomat, and the reissues are also outstanding in terms of sound quality. And they were dirt cheap.

[Soulstation1]

this time it played in the sacd mode, did the" start and stop thing" and then just completely stopped 1/2 way through the disc.

i think i'm just gonna bring this cd back, it seems really defective.

ss1