The New Giants

[clifton]

We know who the giants of jazz are, those who innovated, who moved the music forward, Louis, Duke, Bird, Monk, Ornette, etc. These giants set the parameters for the music, and their innovations are still being explored. The question presents itself: Who are today's giants? This thread is concerned with today's innovators and today's great soloists. It's about those who, in twenty years, will be ranked with the giants. I'll start with a few: Dave Douglas and James Carter. As a trumpeter, Douglas is already great, with a personal sound and ideas. As an innovator, Douglas understands that compositional form, departing from blues and Tin Pan Alley song forms, is a fertile area for jazz exploration. His compositions use tempo changes, exotic rhythms, and multiple themes to challenge the improviser. And it all swings. James Carter is one of the great saxophonists. He realizes that jazz is a continuum that runs from Pops to Braxton, from Hawk to Ayler, and he draws from every element of that continuum, unpredictably so. As a tenor player, Carter has obvious roots in Coleman Hawkins and Ben Webster, but his sound is his own, and his ideas now flow, giving his solos a structural unity they didn't always possess. Other new giants would have to include Chris Potter, Dave Holland, William Parker, Branford Marsalis, Jessica Williams, Roy Hargrove, Renee Rosnes, Matthew Shipp, and Pat Metheny. There are even more, but my purpose isn't to make a big list, it's to get a discussion going. Who do you regard as the new giants of jazz, the leaders and great soloists, shaping the music now and in the future?

[Coypu]

Allan Holdsworth is the man in my eyes. He has been around for a while but is still going strong so I give him my vote. His soloing is amazing in all ways, skill, theory, feeling etc. He is a pretty good songwriter too considering the genre.

Most have probably heard Allan but for thoose who haven't yet you should get this song :

City Nights (http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/MX/01%20-%20City%20Nights.mp3) , this song is just the tip of the iceberg so to speak.

As far as bass goes Gary Willis of tribal tech and Sean Malone of Cynic (and lots more) are the ones who does the most in bassplaying nowadays. Seans work on Gordian Knot is truly amazing with lots of composing to back up the improvised stuff which makes his music more structured and coherent than most of the jazz / jazz fusion you get today.

Sean Malone from his jazz album Cortland :
Controversy (bass solo) (http://medieteknik.bth.se/joba01/sound/SeanControversy.mp3)

Gary Willis : Self defense (bass solo) (http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/Bass/GarySelfDefense.mp3)

When it comes to drumming I would say Bobby Jarzombek who has somethinh great going on. His drumming on his brothers spastic ink album is fantastic with perfect timing and some incredibly solos and overall great drumming.

Bobby Jarzombek (Spastic Ink) : Harm & Half-time Baking Shuffle (http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/MX/Spastik%20Ink%20-%20Ink%20Complete%20(1997)/spastic%20ink%20-%20Harm%20And%20Half-Time%20Baking%20Shuffle.mp3)

[Phil Kelly]

It's somewhat difficult to predice a "new giant" when many of the folks mentioned are really comparatively early in their careers. That being said, I'd agree with many of those mentioned ..and add the name of Dave Holland, who's shown huge growth as a writer with both his quintet and larger band work.

[jazzypaul]

It's amazing how we view jazz, isn't it? Keith Jarrett is an established giant, while Dave Holland, who came from the same generation of players and played with a lot of the same people that Keith did is an emerging one. I guess it's just a matter of perception. I wonder how visable he was before the quintet albums of the last few years. Can any of the people here who are older and wiser than I shed some light on that for me?

Anyway, in my mind, two guys who are quickly showing themselves to be gigantic are Kurt Rosenwinkle and Mark Turner, especially in their work together. Taking jazz into entirely new and accesible places. Ben Allison is another, if enough people actually hear him, anyway. Of course, there are Joshua Redman, Brad Mehldau, Christian McBride, Geoff Keezer, etc, etc, etc...The list goes on indefinitely. There are definitely some great players doing some amazing things with this music to keep it fresh, and God Bless each and every one of them.

[clifton]

Something interesting is the amount of superior musicians who have emerged in the last ten years or so. I'm glad Mark Turner was mentioned. He's a compelling voice in his own right, but he and Rick Margitza also represent a school of tenor playing that looks to Warne Marsh for inspiration, rather than Coltrane or Rollins. And I should mention Kenny Garrett. Forgive him his dabbling in commercial ventures; he's the best and most important alto saxophonist to come along in 20 years. And along with Branford Marsalis, Chris Potter, and others, Garrett represents a welcome trend of coming to grips with the innovations of Ornette Coleman.

[GA Russell]

Jazzypaul, I saw Dave Holland with Miles at the Cellar Door in DC both in '70 and in '71. In '72 I saw him again with Stan Getz at Paul's Mall in Boston.

He's made many records for ECM over the past thirty years. I have always considered him as established as Keith Jarrett (who played with Dave at the '71 Miles gig).

It's not clear to me that Jarrett has been more famous than Holland among jazz fans. But maybe I'm out of touch!

[carmenodgie]

Originally posted by clifton
We know who the giants of jazz are, those who innovated, who moved the music forward, Louis, Duke, Bird, Monk, Ornette, etc. The question presents itself: Who are today's giants? I'll start with a few: Dave Douglas and James Carter. Other new giants would have to include Chris Potter, Dave Holland, William Parker, Branford Marsalis, Jessica Williams, Roy Hargrove, Renee Rosnes, Matthew Shipp, and Pat Metheny. Who do you regard as the new giants of jazz, the leaders and great soloists, shaping the music now and in the future?

Dave Douglas...yes...
James Carter // maybe.....
Renee Rosnes? Nope.
Dave Holland, William Parker, Pat Metheny, are already heavy... \\ (Little Huey rules)

-- Chris Potter is on the way...
// I'm on a big Zorn kick right now... - that goes with Douglas though.........
Um,
The whole Downtown school - Cuong Vu, John Hollenbeck, Chris Speed, Jim Black, Theo Bleckmann - young cats // wicked music... this is the direction that the music is going.... -

---=-----------

[clifton]

carmenodgie: I certainly agree with you about the merits of what you refer to as the "Downtown" school. However, when you state that "This is the direction jazz is going", I think you're painting with a slightly broad brush. I think jazz is going in several directions, and the "Downtowners" represent one of them. The strongest overall direction, I believe, is that jazz is a continuum, and today's best musicians draw from any and all styles within the entire spectrum of jazz. David Murray, James Carter, and Dave Douglas can, and do, play everything. The other key to the future of jazz is that musicians are finally dealing with Ornette Coleman's visionary innovations. Certainly Douglas, Zorn, and the "Downtown" school represent that welcome trend, as do Pat Metheny and Branford Marsalis. I've been paying a lot of attention to branford ever since "Requiem", and he represents some of the best jazz has to offer. Ornette opened many doors< and Branford entered.

[clifton]

And I don't want to forget Jason Moran, who is definitely offering something new.

[carmenodgie]

Well put Clifton - and true. There is always going to be a diversity in this music...
// Zorn and crew certainly draw from varied sources, as do Branford at al ....
------- and there are definately several directions to be taken - the "downtown" scene seem s to be growing steadily
(many "biggies" are "accepting" it) \\Metheny hired Cuong Vu for the new group...wild!!
=== yeh......
....

[omar zamora]

Hamid Drake

[jazzypaul]

Hamid's hardly new though. Cat's been making killin' music since sometime in the 70's.

[omar zamora]

Yeah, but he's only been getting real props in the last 10 years or so.

[Pharaohrock]

Hamid Drake? Nahhh.......there have been avant drummers who brought a lot more to the table than he, e.g. Ed Blackwell, Sunny Murray, Paul Motian.

new giants...


the only folks i think people are really still going to be talking about long past their careers are

cassandra wilson
kenny garrett
pat metheny
brad mehldau
greg osby
steve coleman
mark turner
wallace roney
geri allen
brian blade
james carter
steve nelson
stefon harris
branford marsalis

= each of these folks is doing something rather singular compositionally and/or on their instrument, at least relative to jazz post-1965.

[omar zamora]

Originally posted by Pharaohrock
Hamid Drake? Nahhh.......there have been avant drummers who brought a lot more to the table than he, e.g. Ed Blackwell, Sunny Murray, Paul Motian.


We'll have to agree to disagree on Drake. I happen to think some of the ones on your list aren't all that special.

Ken Vandermark has the potential to be a 'giant'. I'm not all that crazy about his playing, but he has a lot of vision for the kinds of projects he's put together or helped put together.

[clifton]

We haven't discussed William Parker yet. I know he's hardly "new", but his career has taken shape slowly but surely. As a bassist/leader he embodies the same virtues as Charles Mingus and Dave Holland. Besides a huge sound and implacable swing, Parker has in common with Mingus and Holland an ability to shape the flow and form of his music as he plays. He's a master of spontaneous orchestration, so to speak. And Parker takes the same panoramic view of jazz, drawing on everything from gutbucket to free in creating his music.

[Pharaohrock]

Sorry bro, Mingus was so much deeper than William Parker. What has Parker written that is anywhere one the scale or ambition of what Mingus did?? I like some of Parker's music, but there's also some that strikes me as just meddling or scribbling, that isn't based in a very strong foundation for approaching a certain style of music. I.E., that lame "Piercing the Veil" album which shows some naive conceptions of ethnic rhythms, or the recent (half-baked) experiments with DJ Spooky.

BTW.....in regard to Omar's comments about the "giants" I listed, which I'm guessing is based in a belief these players are "derivative" and aren't doing anything new, I wanna say something more general:

I can say I've made a sincere effort to check out both realms of the music. How many of you out there can say that? I'm not making direct accusations of anybody, it just seems to me that people tend to have knowledge and awareness of one realm at the expense of having ignorance of the other. I've heard if not an equal share of straight-ahead and avant records, certainly enough of the latter to feel that I'm not merely voicing some unconditional vote of support for the straight-ahead guys.

That said, there is no avant saxophonist who has a bolder conception than Kenny Garrett, never mind if Garrett is even only riffing on a very basic blues form or something. I've heard Garrett in concert several times, and I am confident in saying it's the most equivalent experience one can have to someone in the sixties who got to hear Trane. And I don't mean this in terms of sounding like Trane......it's just the intensity. Garrett played a 15 minute long solo improv cadenza and it was just unreal. I thought a ghost was going to fly out of his body at any moment. All these cats that get critical praise like Joe McPhee, Fred Anderson- they don't even have the chops to do what Kenny does. They have their thing, sure, but they can only get at a certain amount of energy in their playing because the command over the horn isn't as strong.

Trumpet? Do you honestly want to try and put Roy Campbell or Baikida Carroll past Wallace Roney? Shelve your Miles-clone hang-up and hear Roney on an "on" night. He is clearly the most distinctive trumpeter out there. People talk about the microtonal precision of Dave Douglas but Roney's been doing that for 20+ years now.

I gotta give it up to Steve Lacy on the soprano horn though. And Walt Dickerson, Khan Jamal- I respect them on the vibraphone a lot. I would still put Bobby H or Steve Nelson higher, but among avant soloists, I'd give them some of the biggest props.


Peace

[jazzypaul]

Pharoahrock,

By far and wide, most of the time, I agree with you. For the most part, on this subject, I agree with you. But Roney will always be an also ran. Put him in the same bag as Scott Hamilton, Warren Vache and Javon Jackson. All guys who have the ability to make some great music, but far and wide choose to imitate and not take it past that. That said, Roney is a fabulous trumpet player, and he makes some great noise, but what NEW stuff has he brought to the table? Douglas has him beat hands down there. Douglas can get as out as out goes, come inside, play some real pretty music, do the Davis clone just as well as Roney (The Infinite) and then turn around and play free-klezmer! Douglas has the versatility, the chops and the personality to say some great stuff. Now, Roney could turn out to be another Vonski; that is to say, he might really be able to get his whole conception together and take it to an entirely different place when he gets to be about 50 or so. I hope he does, chops like that shouldn't go to waste. And there have been hints at it over his last few records. I'm rooting for him, but if Roney dies tomorrow, he'll be forgotten within a couple of years. As for Omar's comments about Vandermark: listen to Spaceways Incorporated for great ideas and the Sound in Time trio for some great playing from Vandermark. And Pharoah, I hear where you're coming from, but don't knock Fred. Ever. Dude was a total jackass to me when I interviewed him, and I still love him. That's gotta say something for his music.

[Pharaohrock]

Paul, I would just ask you to talk to trumpet players about Roney, and moreover- listen again but without the filter of the white jazz media obscuring your ears. ( I say "white" only because every last critic who's dissed on Roney has been white. White critics also think they understand Miles Davis better than anyone else, so this makes sense- let's attack his inferior clone!!!)

In any event, a while ago, I can say I was brainwashed by the jazz press against my own better judgement into thinking Roney didn't have the special "thing" that I thought I heard. That he was merely derivative, an "also-ran" as you say....But then, I actually got some reinforcement in my beliefs from the people who would be the best judges in the first place. Some trumpeters. I won't name names but they have a lot more credibility in this matter than any of us.

I disagree about Douglas' music having this superior quality of originality as well. I know he's a pet favorite of the critics, but I consider his music to be vastly overrated. People talk about that last record like it was such a fantastic homage to Miles' sound, but shit- it may be a good record but between the two of them, Roney's "Quintet" is the record Miles would be digging more, I know that. The latter is an intense, shredding record and more consistent with the part of the jazz tradition Miles came from, which is more about having a really solid pulse. Douglas is closer to the New England Conserv/ECM deal, though not incapable of swinging either...

Anyway, check out Roney's "No Room For Argument" if you think Roney is some kind of un-creative moron. That's the record he's most proud of and I think it reflects well on his powers of conception. Certainly the band he's assembled with Buster and Lenny and Geri is reason enough to check it out.

As you can see calling him an "also-ran" has inspired me to try and put the record straight.

Peace

g

[clifton]

I gotta get my two cents in. Anyone who thinks Roney is a Miles clone isn't really listening. Roney's only real resemblance to Miles is his lack of vibrato. Roney's choice of notes is always quite different, harmonically, from note choices Davis made. Whereas Miles either played bop changes or improvised modally (there's a lot of modal improvising in those second quintet albums), Roney often uses pentatonic substitutions, for example, that Miles didn't use. Dave Douglas is still a more satisfying and innovative musician, to my ears. I saw Dave at the Village Vanguard a few months ago and he was amazing, as was the whole band. Chris Potter, Uri Caine, James Genus, and Clarence Penn take a back seat to nobody. For Pharoahrock, two points: William Parker may not match the scope of Mingus' achievements, but I don't think the comparison is unfair; check Parker's "O'Neal's Porch" to hear his applications/extensions of Mingus' ideas. Also, I'm curious. Does your user name derive from the fact that Pharoah Sanders comes from Little Rock? I dig Pharoah, great sound and intensity.

[Pharaohrock]

Congrats Clif. You nailed my screenname. I almost feel like I owe you a prize or something. Yeah, I think it's too hip that Pharoah is from Little Rock. Who'du thunk it?? I'd like to see more great musicians come from completely random places. And he is a painter. I have yet to see his painting but would love to. To me Pharaoh represents the essence of cosmic jazz, which I am a wholehearted fan of....so much spirit and soul, utopian sensibility, in the music...

Congrats also on having some ears and being able to distinguish the clear difference in sound between Roney and Miles. That Roney "sounds just like Miles" is one of the biggest misconceptions floating out there today. Perpetuated by tone-deaf jazz critics of course...

[jazzypaul]

Well, I agree, Roney's harmonic judgement IS different from Miles', but I am a huge stickler about tone. And tone wise, it's cool to get into the "I'm gonna play like this guy for a few bars or a for a song," but to make your career out of it, I dunno. I hold the same beef against Kenny Washington, too. Dude would outswing me till only God knows when, but I listen to him, and I hear "PHILLY JOE CLONE." Personally, I would hate that. I hated it when people started telling me that I had Blakey's thing down, and I hate it now that people are starting to tell me that I've got Elvin's thing nailed a little too closely for comfort. And, yeah, when I mentioned moments of Roney having greatness, No Room For Argument and Cafe were the two moments that came to mind, when he shed the Miles thing and did his own thing. And it sounds great. Maybe he IS getting his thing together. That would be killin'. And again, I'll be rooting for him all the way. And whether it's the intended purpose or not, I'm starting to feel like I should apologize for being (off) white around here. Let's leave the racial shit at the door.

[clifton]

To really hear Roney, check out T.S. Monk's "Monk On Monk". Nobody else plays that way. Again, once you get by the lack of vibrato, Roney's not Miles. His attack's a little different, too. I don't think many critics notice these things. IMHO, Dave Douglas is still more interesting. By the way, regarding younger trumpeters, I'm much impressed by Terrell Stafford's recent work. He hasn't quite moved beyond his Shaw/Hubbard/Dorham lineage, but he's getting there. As for Pharoah Sanders himself, I always dug him. Saw him a lot in the 1970's, and the music was so intense I thought I was gonna have a heart attack. Love his work on Sonny Sharrock's "Ask The Ages",

[Pharaohrock]

Hey I didn't even catch this before but you dissed on Javon Jackson too Paul! Javon is another like Roney whom critics smugly dismissed as being a "sound-a-like." In his case, he supposedly owed everything, his whole sound and conception, to Joe Henderson....whatever.

I'm glad you brought up the issue of tone however because sometimes I think that this (the surface quality of sound) is all the critics are capable of perceiving. Javon is respected around the scene with those who know, as is Roney. A question to all here though: why don't the critics find out what peers think of a musician before going out on a limb with their opinion of him/her?? IMO, they would save themselves so much credibility if they did.

[Pharaohrock]

Critics hear Joe's tone in Javon- as an improviser I find him more akin to Zoot or Mobley, more of a "classic" sound.....

[clifton]

Here's my take on Javon Jackson. Tonally, he resembles Henderson. His improvisational ideas struck me as a unique cross between King Curtis and Blakey-era Wayne Shorter. He will often start a chorus with a riff, which he gradually extends and mutates for 8 to 16 bars, and then moves into complex ideas and faster playing until he initiates a new riff. The riffs provide the King Curtis connection, and I wouldn't be surprised if Jackson played r&b or funk at some point. His solos reflect a logic that is very much Shorter-derived, I think. New giant? Maybe not, but Javon Jackson remains an underrated, sometimes striking soloist.

[Pharaohrock]

Look out....this Clifton cat THINKS about what he's hearing.....thanks, that was interesting man. I feel like I need to go and check out King Curtis now so I'd have a better idea of what you're getting at.

[clifton]

Pharoahrock: Thank you for the compliment. I am a disabled former saxophonist, wasn't bad at all, played jazz and some rock and funk, never recorded. The disability is neurological so barring some surgical breakthru my playing days are over. Anyway I paid some dues and I learned to listen critically and with open ears. I also love jazz obsessively and I love writing about it, too. And speaking of younger tenor players, the ones I'm most impressed with are James Carter and Chris Potter, followed closely by Joshua Redman, David Sanchez, Eric Alexander, and Mark Turner. Carter and Potter arrived at mature personal voices before the others, and Carter is notable for 1)his ability to refertence the entire jazz continuum into an individual sound, 2)his use of humor, and 3)his use of significant aspects of Coleman Hawkins' sound and outlook. This actually serves to focus us on Hawk, the first great tenor player, an always-exploratory perpetual modernist, and my all-time favorite tenor player. Good to see cats digging Hawk again.

[Pharaohrock]

Clif, you sound like quite a hip individual. It's great to see people who are so idealistic about the music that they try to support it in any way possible. I bet your playing would have knocked me out too!

..In regards to Tenor players, although I'm hearing alto a lot more these days (just been on a big alto kick for a while now...), I would add a couple of names to the mix. I have to say I am quite fond of Don Braden's nasal sound (he's fantastic on the new live Cecil Brooks joint), and that I also like the young Marcus Strickland, who to me has a sound that really "breathes." He's not there yet by any means, but it's quite remarkable how well he plays for only being 21.

- I like Abraham Burton too, though truthfully I haven't heard him on Tenor outside of the marvellous "Cause and Effect" album on Enja.

Lastly, I know someone who raves about Tim Warfield, but I've never really gotten into him, as he seems too stylized to me....

[Phil Kelly]

I pretty much go along with Potter, Alexander ..Carter occasionally gets tedious for me when he goes into his honking and squeaking thing, but there's no question he can play very well in many instances.

I'm sort of surprised that no one has mentioned Bob Sheppard yet ..he's a real sleeper ..

Phil Kelly

[jazzypaul]

I think the only reason a lot of people might not have mentioned Sheppard is simply due to his lack of recorded output. The dude is a monster player, but he suffers the same fate as a lot of other west coast players: the nucleus of the jazz scene is on the east coast! This is largely why Von is so largely unknown, and he's the best known of the Chicago cats. There are many others on the Chicago scene who could easily do battle with some of the names in New York, but for some reason want to stay here.

Pharoahrock: hearing tone and making comparisons based on such does not infer lack of listening. It all comes down to what people listen FOR. Insofar as Javon Jackson goes, if sounding like Joe Henderson is a knock, then I can think of thousands of tenor players who would love a good critical drubbing. We've been lucky enough to hear quite a few VERY original players come up in the last few years (Potter and Turner to name two) so that we CAN indeed lean into players whose tone my be derivative of another player's. Insofar as Javon's playing goes, I think he's done a few great albums, and whenever he hooks up with Fareed Haque, it makes for a stunning combination.

[Pharaohrock]

I can't believe I forgot about Mark Shim- I like him a lot.

[clifton]

Bearing a tonal similarity to another player, by the way, is not a sin. If it were, Don Byas, Paul Quinichette, Bob Berg, Bob Cooper, even Greg Osby (to my ears he sometimes sounds like Braxton) would burn in hell. When you appropriate someone's sound, ideas, and attack, you're a clone, and I don't want to hear that. But a personal approach based on another model is fine. Byas came out of Hawk, Lou Donaldson and Phil Woods out of Bird, Herbie Hancock out of Bill Evans. Would you dispute their jazz creds? And incidentally, has anyone noticed how Cannonball Adderly and Jackie McLean have become influences in their own right? Vincent Herring and Jesse Davis are straight outta Cannon, although Herring's got an individuality that Davis hasn't, to my ears, reached yet. McLean's erntire approach and point-of-view (be yourself and keep learning and growing) marks much of jazz today, and he's taught some of the best younger players. JMac's alto style has directly influenced young giants Kenny Garrett and Antonio Hart, and everyone today owes a debt to Ornette. And to those who mentioned Marty Ehrlich and Mark Shim, I agree. In fact, what's most interesting about today's scene is the unprecedented number of quality musicians around. And there are European, Japanese, Turkish and Israeli players who are killin', not to mention woman musicians like Ingrid Jensen, Geri Allen, and Jessica Williams. Now if only I can get rich so I can buy all their CD's and see all their concerts.

[Pharaohrock]

...agree about Herring vis a vis Jesse Davis, who seems BTW to have dropped off the scene of late. Herring can blow really hard and it's worth checking out his jam session at the UpandOver in Brooklyn. I dug his last joint on HighNote.

[omar zamora]

Originally posted by Pharaohrock
BTW.....in regard to Omar's comments about the "giants" I listed, which I'm guessing is based in a belief these players are "derivative" and aren't doing anything new...

No, it's based on the belief that I dig'em.

And yes, I listen to modern mainstream musicians, too. It happens that my interest lies elsewhere. There's really no need to make it a competition.

[Pharaohrock]

Not a competition, no, although I do sincerely believe that many mainstream players could play back what avant-garde musicians play with little difficulty, whereas the converse just wouldn't hold. Having said that, I think the most interesting musicians are those with a solid foundation in traditional jazz who then take things progressively outward, e.g. Trane, Eric Dolphy, James Carter, Marty Ehrlich, Geri Allen....

[clifton]

Some comments on the comments: One thing that seems clear is the amazing number of superior musicians out there. Many have been mentioned, and there's many more, and we haven't even mentioned any Canadians, or Italians, or Brits. Mike Murley or Gianluigi Trovesi, anyone? Another thing is the ability of today's jazz musicians to play convincingly in any style. Matthew Shipp is supposed to be an outcat, but he's also a hell of a bopper. ("Pastoral Composure", some of Ware's "Surrendered"). Dave Douglas is considered an outcat, even an academic, but when I saw him live, he played some kickin' hard bop as part of his set. How do you classify David Murray? Outcat? Funkster? Today's musicians draw from the entire jazz continuum, and I think that's healthy.

[ppjazz]

Two guys I'm thinking of are Eric Alexander and Chris Potter.

[Pharaohrock]

Clif, no offense but I've heard that record (Pastoral Comp.) and you must have a pretty loose definition of "bop." Bop phrasing in parts, perhaps, but no way does Shipp demonstrate there that he can navigate through a labyrinth of changes like a Barry Harris does or any other true bebop piano player does. I'd want to listen to him playing the bebop forms, not just making allusions to that music, before I gave him this kind of credit.

[clifton]

Pharoahrock: On David S. Ware's "Surrendered", they do a Charles Lloyd tune (name escapes me, sorry) and Shipp navigates the changes decisively. In fact, all through "Surrendered", Shipp makes a real good case for himself, although I'm aware he's still primarily an outcat. By the way, Jesse Davis is still around, living and working in Europe. He did a CD with an Italian rhythm section last year that is very good, and the Italian cats sound great. The critics are not paying enough attention to Italian Jazz. Steffano di Battista, Flavio Boltrani, etc. are on a par with all but the very best American musicians.

[Pharaohrock]

I'm not doubting you, but since when has Charles Lloyd wrote a bebop tune?

[jazzypaul]

I can think of two:

Sweet Goergia Bright

Third Floor Richard

Us unhip white guys need to stick together after all...

[Pharaohrock]

lol. Sorry if I seem skeptical, but I'm just not all that impressed with Matt Shipp. I play piano myself, and I think he relies on playing octaves WAY too much....

[Phil Kelly]

I'll probably be inviting the flame throwers here, but speaking of young highly touted pianists that may ne overrated:

Brad Meldau ..while a perfectly adequate pianist from what I've heard, at least for me doesn't rate all the hype and awards that have been heaped upon him.

Flame away!! :)

Phil Kelly

[clifton]

Phil: I'm going to disagree with you on Mehldau, but with civility. I can see where Mehldau could come off as a second-hand Jarrett, but I find some real originality in his approach,, particularly when he gets aggressive with his left hand. Well we are entitled to these differences. Pharoahrock you don't respond to Shipp as positively as I do, although I will admit he does too much foot pedal sustain for my taste. Heck, so does Jason Moran, who I really dig. I do tend to be a forgiving listener in most instances. Other younger pianists I really dig: Geri Allen, Benny Green, Geoff Keezer, Renee Rosnes, Aaron Goldberg, Craig Taborn, Jessica Williams. There's more but I can't recall all the names at the moment.

[Pharaohrock]

I personally think Mehldau's a genius, even though aesthetically I can't really dig it. I feel the same way about Jarrett too....it's
an aesthetic that would be more appealing to people with Western classical sensibilities than those who prefer a more physically immediate sound.

[Phil Kelly]

Clifton:


You and I probably will not agree on Mehldau, but I do go along wholeheartedly with most of your other picks: i.e.( Other younger pianists I really dig: Geri Allen, Benny Green, Geoff Keezer, Renee Rosnes..)

to the above group I would add Bill Charlap ..and Eric Reed .

Phil Kelly

[ppjazz]

I just received an advance release from Telarc Jazz that brings together Benny Green and Russ Malone. It's a "live" release and is very good.

Frankly with all the pianists that come to mind, the one I have never been able to get enough of is the late Gene Harris.

[Pharaohrock]

Geez, Benny Green is great at what he does but he's hardly as creative as a Brad Mehldau. More of an entertainer than an artist in my mind.....

[clifton]

Gene Harris was cool. Barry Harris is even better. As for Benny Green, I saw him live a few times, and he was smokin'. Even though he's essentially a hard bopper, he's managed to find his own thing, characterized by the unison left hand-right hand lines he does (sometimes very fast), and his urgent left hand. The only real problem you could have with Green is that he could be considered retro. However, he plays his chosen idiom with absolute conviction. Another impressive young pianist is Joey Calderazzo, a real unique voice, part of Branford's band, of course. Branford himself is a giant, I think. I regard Branford as a latter-day Sonny Stitt. Whereas Stitt developed a personal, brilliant voice based on Charlie Parker and Lester Young, Branford
Marsalis has developed a unique, brilliant voice based on John Coltrane, Sonny Rollins, and a profound understanding of the innovations of Ornette Coleman.

[hoochmonkey9]

In the years to come, I think we'll be throwing around D.D. Jackson's name the same way we do Andrew Hill's...a great piano talent and composer and I think potentially a great bandleader.

[Pharaohrock]

I love Benny Green, and while he's a favorite punching bag of critics who see him as a retro-posterboy, he has the respect of his fellow musicians to be sure. Joe Lovano hired him for a gig recently (with Sonny Fortune also I believe) and I heard Benny was fantastic. The fact is, he can deal with all styles of music, anything you throw at him so in this sense, he's not some one-trick retro cat.

However, comparing him to Mehldau is comparing apples to oranges. Mehldau, whether you dig his aesthetic or not, is clearly more in the visionary mold. Benny is just a soloist- a fine, fine soloist at that, but not someone who's really bringing anything to the table that wasn't already there.

Mehldau's trio is amazing in the way it changes time signatures. Just seamless......now, I haven't heard this "Largo" record, but I know whether I'd like it or not, it's gotta be ambitious and risk-taking. That's just the character of an "artist" like Mehldau.

[Pharaohrock]

Re: Branford. I don't really hear him on Tenor man. I totally dig his soprano playing but as far as Tenor, I'd just as rather listen to Craig Handy. I also think Branford, as a musician overall, tries to polish everything to a fault. I don't play his records much because I just don't like perfectionistic jazz.....the band is technically great but there's not much feeling there IMO. It reminds me of if the Coltrane Quartet had been told to play more like the Modern Jazz Quartet.

One other thing: please enlighten me on how Branford has absorbed Ornette's innovations......as I don't hear anything like the spontaneity of Coleman's improvisation in his music.

[clifton]

The "polish" in Branford's music comes from, I think, years of playing together, so that they make their music sound easy. As for dealing with Ornette, Branford's writing is the first example. Ornette broke from 12 and 32 bar song forms, and often tends to respect the form of his own tune when he's soloing. For example, "Bird Food" has a 9 1/2 bar "A" section and an 8 bar bridge, and the group holds to that form. Ornette will just as often mutate the form, turn the beat around, or drop out or add a bar much like a Delta bluesman. These are common Branford tactics, particularly in "Requiem" and "Contemporary Jazz". In Branford's music, the piano provides a harmonic anchor that isn't in most of Ornette's music. My contention is that while Branford is very much influenced by Coleman's ideas, his sound is very personal. It's as if Ornette affects what Branford plays, but not how he plays it. And by the way, Ornette makes it sound easy, too.

[Pharaohrock]

Thanks for the heads-up. I will listen more carefully.

[Pharaohrock]

Thanks for the heads-up. I will listen more carefully.

[clifton]

Pharoahrock: Just some more opinion re Branford, who, as you may have guessed, I am a big fan of. On "Footsteps Of Our Fathers" you are less likely to hear the Ornette influence, except, of course, on "Giggin'". That's an Ornette 13 bar blues (might be 13 1/2 I have to listen again). Branford plays the form as Coleman wrote it. He also uses irregular phrase lengths much as Coleman does, which shatter the bar lines and give the illusion of ignoring the changes and the song form. It's very sophisticated, conceptually. On "Requiem" and "Contemporary Jazz" Branford is more Ornette-ish, I think. I like to think I know my stuff but it's all IMHO. Re Pharoah Sanders: I really like his playing and have a lot of his Impulse stuff. I think "Thembi" and especially "Summun Bukmun Umyum" are his best Impulse stuff. "Black Unity" was OK but I felt it lost momentum after Carlos Garnett's solo. Trivia item: In reviewing "Black Unity", Down Beat gave it pretty solid 3 1/2 stars but attributed Garnett's solo to Sanders. BTW the best Sanders to my ears is on Sonny Sharrock's "Ask The Ages" (required listening) and Roney's "Village" (how to explore Miles' legacy without imitating Miles).