PDA

View Full Version : How did Charlie Parker invent Bop??



ninetynine
December 24th, 2004, 11:40 AM
Is it because he played fast , i still don't get it anyone can clarify?

jscratch
December 24th, 2004, 12:05 PM
Bigger, more complex chords, new kinds of scales, more chromaticism, etc. In other words, he just added a big chunk to the vocbulary.

Karl
December 24th, 2004, 12:41 PM
"How did Charlie Parker invent Bop?"
Well, thats a question!

The most important thing Bird gave to jazz was his unique way of phrasing, which was absolutely revolutionary at that time. Parker was not "the guy that invented Bop"; of course he was an important part of the Bebop-movement but people already played fast over complex chordal structures, but no one ever did it as good as Bird.

Listen to Benny Goodman and then to Charlie Parker and you might understand what Bop actually was compared to what was before.

idancetojazz
December 24th, 2004, 06:09 PM
Is it because he played fast , i still don't get it anyone can clarify?
A lot of swing peices were as fast or faster than bop. Karl's suggestion is excellent. Parker was a swing musician (with Jay McShann and others) who, along with a number of swing musicians, participated in the invention/development of bop. I might also suggest that you listen to someone like Coleman Hawkins who was a well recorded and fully mature swing player who made a transition to bop. But his bop playing is not as full on and unforgiving as Parker's, so he provides more of a transitional sense. Also, if you want a sense of where bop came from, listen to Dizzy Gillespie's stuff from the mid 40's He too was a well recorded swing era musician who helped lead the bop movement.

Finally, and perhaps most interestingly, Benny Goodman had a short lived bop group in '47, '48 '49 time frame with Fats Navarro, Wardell Gray and other excellent bop players. What is especially interesting about these is that Goodman himself never quite got it. So in these tunes - e.g. Stealing Apples recorded in 1948 with BG, Fats Navarro and Wardell Gray - you can hear in one peice both swing and bop styles superimposed!

There is also a well known piece recorded by Lucky Thompson among others called "From Dixie to Bop" which is not ever as full on as Parker, but also conveys a sense of the transition. I think there is also a piece called from Swing To Bop by ??? that does the same.

I find '40 - '50 the most interesting era of jazz exactly because of this evolution.

Tenorman
December 24th, 2004, 06:31 PM
If you listen to the recorded archive Bop suddenly sprang fully fledged from nowhere.

Bop was developed in back rooms and musician's haunts over at least a year, before the music that is recognisable as Bop actually got recorded.

I don't think that "invented" is the right word. It developed from the ideas of a number of musicians, who were playing something different in their "day jobs" That development may have been "hot house" rather than style creep, but I thnk that it is safe to say that a lot of things were tried and no doubt quite a few were rejected before that music gradually surfaced to the shock of the Jazz listener.

Dennis_M
December 24th, 2004, 08:12 PM
To say that Charlie Parker invented bop is like saying Bach invented classical music. Many people contributed. Parker was arguably the best performer, but many people, including Dizzy Gillespie, Bud Powell, and Thelonious Monk contributed. IMO, Dizzy was the most important figure in bop/be bop. He knew the theory (a lot of which he invented) and taught many musicians how to play it. He did this with the piano, not the trumpet.

Dennis_M
December 24th, 2004, 08:21 PM
I find '40 - '50 the most interesting era of jazz exactly because of this evolution.
Me too, although I would extend the time another ten years on the early side ('30-50)

jlee
December 24th, 2004, 08:22 PM
The best (short, short) book on the topic (as if there's one) of roots-bop playing might be Clark Coolidge's _Now It's Jazz_. Highly advised to procure it and read it -- you might have to spend ten or twelve dollars to have it delivered to your door.

Other than such insider accounts, you're stuck with "music" critic lingo by, very often, people with mercenary ideals. You'll hear all about upper extensions, chromaticism, all the way to the be-boppers own confusing obfuscations about their favorite 20th-C composers -- maybe listen to the difference between drummers like Cozy Cole and Max Roach? Settle in on one element at a time and get to know it.

Fran
December 24th, 2004, 10:37 PM
Charlie Parker did not invent BOP
if any one invented bop Dizzie did at Mintons
Charlie, talented as he was, came along on Dizzies shirttails.
Diz was the musician. Charlie was a very talented Alto saxaphonist.

Dennis_M
December 24th, 2004, 10:44 PM
Charlie Parker did not invent BOP
if any one invented bop Dizzie did at Mintons
Charlie, talented as he was, came along on Dizzies shirttails.
Diz was the musician. Charlie was a very talented Alto saxaphonist.

I could not agree more.

ninetynine
December 24th, 2004, 11:09 PM
I guess what I meant to say was , why was Parker so popular when we speak of bop, guess i should have rephrased !

Dennis_M
December 24th, 2004, 11:19 PM
I guess what I meant to say was , why was Parker so popular when we speak of bop, guess i should have rephrased !

Because he was an unbelievably great sax player! Second to no one, IMO.

Lee Gato
December 25th, 2004, 01:49 AM
"[...] if any one invented bop Dizzie did at Mintons. Charlie, talented as he was, came along on Dizzies shirttails." [Fran]

Gillespie may have preceded Parker as a participant at Minton's, but that doesn't imply that Gillespie preceded Parker conceptually.

"Diz was the musician. Charlie was a very talented Alto saxaphonist [sic]."

First, Parker recorded brilliantly not just as an alto saxophonist, but also as a tenor. Second, Parker was a composer as well as a saxophonist. Granted, Gillespie was an arranger, big band leader, and occasional pianist too, but that advantage doesn't make him preeminent over Parker as an initiator of bebop.

Lee Gato
December 25th, 2004, 02:08 AM
"[...] why was Parker so popular when we speak of bop [...]" [ninetynine]

Parker's bebop playing was so extraordinarily rich, original and virtuosic that he set a new standard for saxophone playing (though not to overlook Don Byas and other jazz leviathans). Parker's compositions were so ingenious, challenging, and so wonderfully expressive of the bebop idiom that they become a large part of the basic bebop repetoire. So, since saxophone and trumpet (perhaps piano too) are the most prominent instruments in bebop, Parker is among the very most prominent initiators of it (usually, whether justifiably or not, Gillespie and Parker are thought of as kind of the Orville and Wilbur of bebop, with Parker more often edging out Gillespie for historical top billing). Moreover, Parker's concept, his improvisations and his very phrases seemed so ineluctable to the bebop musicians of his time that his playing became a kind of mold, or at least pervasive influence, for playing not just saxophone but most of the other instruments too.

Nevertheless, Parker and Gillespie were not the sole originators of bebop, and the contributions of McGhee, Clarke, Pettiford, and others were crucial and still reverberate.

Of course, all this only suggests the questions: What is so rich, original, and virtuousic about Parker's playing and what is so ingenious, challenging, and expressive about his compositions? If you like, I'll post a little about that, or others here may have their own explanations to post as some have already mentioned a few key points.

idancetojazz
December 25th, 2004, 10:00 AM
Me too, although I would extend the time another ten years on the early side ('30-50)
Actually, about half of my collection is pre'40 reissues. But I am almost afraid to talk about this with the heavy dose of post '50s jazzers on this board.

maybe listen to the difference between drummers like Cozy Cole and Max Roach? Settle in on one element at a time and get to know it.
Indeed. Sometimes people think of bop strictly in terms of what the lead players did - Parker, Diz, Powell etc. But, as a dancer and drummer I am most aware of the huge rhythmic changes from bop to swing. I have heard some say that this was in response to the lead players needing more space and flexibility, but I think that it was more collaborative. I.e., I think that perhaps the rhythm players may have started offering more space as well, not just responding. After all - it is jazz - which to me is NOT all about chops, solos and improv, but rather is about shared, coordinated and collaborative improv. The creative interplay between the musicians on some of those early bop pieces is what makes them really great for me.

idancetojazz
December 25th, 2004, 10:04 AM
Having said that, I do have to admit that Parker's playing just totally blows me away - even on the "With Strings" stuff thast didn't have the same kinds or level of inteplay.

It Should be You
December 25th, 2004, 10:17 PM
Some other "inventors" of bop worth remembering were George Wallington (piano), Oscar Pettiford (bass), Kenny Clark (drums), and a bit later J.J. Johnson (trombone). Who would be the equivalent for guitar?

idancetojazz
December 25th, 2004, 10:33 PM
Guitar---Tiny Grimes?? Barney Kessel?

benny
December 26th, 2004, 04:03 AM
Who would be the equivalent for guitar?

Maybe Charlie Christian... He wasn't fast or flashy, wasn't recorded a hell of a lot, and he definately didn't live long enough to see bop develop, but he had a very fluid style in my opinion and I think he was one of the early movers of bebop. Had he lived longer I think he may have been more recognised.

jazzbluescat
December 26th, 2004, 09:51 AM
Actually, and I have this on good authority, bebop was indeed invented by Mr. Gillespie. He was commissioned by the king of the music of the day, one Louis Armstrong(I don't know if there was an actual conspiracy but, note both were trumpet players), to come up with something that could withstand the onslaught of swing music, which was the popular music of the day. Dizzy promptly hired a research & development team headed by one Charles Parker. Mr. Parker then gathered notable musicians and formed a combination board of directors/research & development team, who, along with Mr. Dizzy, went out into the field with their ideas and collaborated with the public and other musicians and experimented with ideas. For the sake of conversation and for the official minutes of the board of directors, Mr. Dizzy decided that this new music needed a title/label. Since the music seemed to suggest certain phonetic sounds as hey bob o re bop, etc., he decided to call it Bebop. Mr. Dizzy then reported back to Mr. Armstrong, and Mr. Armstrong said "this is good;" hence, the invention of bebop.

Fran
December 26th, 2004, 11:11 AM
In your Heart you know your nutz. It was Wayne King the Boogie King who commisioned Diz to form a task force to defeat the onslaught of Sammy Kaye and his singing song titles.

lorenzini
December 26th, 2004, 05:21 PM
Actually, and I have this on good authority, bebop was indeed invented by Mr. Gillespie. He was commissioned by the king of the music of the day, one Louis Armstrong(I don't know if there was an actual conspiracy but, note both were trumpet players), to come up with something that could withstand the onslaught of swing music, which was the popular music of the day. Dizzy promptly hired a research & development team headed by one Charles Parker. Mr. Parker then gathered notable musicians and formed a combination board of directors/research & development team, who, along with Mr. Dizzy, went out into the field with their ideas and collaborated with the public and other musicians and experimented with ideas. For the sake of conversation and for the official minutes of the board of directors, Mr. Dizzy decided that this new music needed a title/label. Since the music seemed to suggest certain phonetic sounds as hey bob o re bop, etc., he decided to call it Bebop. Mr. Dizzy then reported back to Mr. Armstrong, and Mr. Armstrong said "this is good;" hence, the invention of bebop.


I had a good laugh.

sheldonm
December 27th, 2004, 11:57 AM
...actually I invented Bop but never came forward to claim it before now :tongue2: !

Mark

zaragemca
December 27th, 2004, 01:47 PM
Actually meny people already forgot that Chano Pozo have something to do with it there is the recording which was called 'cubana bep','cubana bop', with Dizzy G.

Fran
December 29th, 2004, 09:43 PM
Actually many people already forgot that Chano Pozo have something to do with it, there is the recording which was called 'cubana bep','cubana bop', with Dizzy G.Also Chano did recording with Bird.

"Cubano Be" - "Cubano Bop" were written by Dizzie Gillespie and George Russell. Russell opened up the arrangement to give Pozo a place to improvise and his bit became an integral part of the composition. As a result many people think Pozo was one of the writers. This is much the same as Barney Bigard's clarinet chorus on the original Duke Ellington "Mood Indigo" which became a part of the composition. It is often repeated as Bigard originally concieved the solo - and Bigard is often credited as one of the composers.

zaragemca
December 29th, 2004, 10:16 PM
Well,not me Fran,I know that Chano Pozo could not write music(even when he was a composer),I said he has something to do with it,but anyway Alberto Socarras and Mario Bauza both introduced Dizzy G. in the understanding of the cuban music structure,and Arturo 'Chico' O'farrill did a lot of arrangements for those guys,in those days.

clave
December 29th, 2004, 10:58 PM
Thanks for the clarification, Fran. It's much appreciated.

if anyone wants to explore other angles, try this book (http://www.descarga.com/cgi-bin/db/20114.50?binyhzmg;;84). (I haven't read it yet, but plan on getting a copy -- looks like one of many good ones on the subject.)

Please forgive the diversion!

BTW (to make this more interesting), Monk, Dizzy and others used to jam at Mary Lou Williams' apartment on a regular basis. (And she had some good stories about them -- some are excerpted in Bill Crow's book Jazz Anecdotes.)

As far as the lone inventor of bop theory, I don't buy it -- I think Tenorman and Fran are right on the money. (Especially given all the jam sessions, etc. etc. etc.) Too many people were in the same places at the same time, collaborating, etc.

Quatermass
December 30th, 2004, 12:55 PM
Surely there a finger of creation can't be pointed directly at anyone player as many players contributed to the process, but certainly Bird, Hawk, Diz, Oscar and JJ were all key figures.

peter rh
December 30th, 2004, 02:26 PM
BTW (to make this more interesting), Monk, Dizzy and others used to jam at Mary Lou Williams' apartment on a regular basis. (And she had some good stories about them -- some are excerpted in Bill Crow's book Jazz Anecdotes.)


Apart from the regular meetings at her apartment, Mary Lou Williams was also
responsible for bringing Charlie Christian to the attention of John Hammond
(and Benny Goodman).
I'm surprised there has been no mention so far of Art Tatum - I think Don
Byas cited Tatum as a big influence

Tritone Sub
December 30th, 2004, 02:43 PM
Question for the music theory crowd:

What does it mean when people say "improvise off the top of a chord"? Does that mean if you have, say, a C13 you would use the 9,11 and 13 more prominently than the 1,3,5 and 7?

This seems pertinent to the discussion because I think it's in the Penguin Guide that I read about how Parker's main innovation was to "improvise off the top of a chord".

clave
December 30th, 2004, 10:56 PM
Apart from the regular meetings at her apartment, Mary Lou Williams was also
responsible for bringing Charlie Christian to the attention of John Hammond
(and Benny Goodman).
I'm surprised there has been no mention so far of Art Tatum - I think Don
Byas cited Tatum as a big influence

Thanks for mentioning all of these things -- they ring a bell, however faintly! (I need to do a bit of a refresher on this period of time...)

Saundra Hummer
December 31st, 2004, 01:47 AM
Didn't keep current like all of you have and forgot so much, but it seems like a natural progression with so many talents just bursting at the seams with the need to take everything to another level. They all seemed so driven and taken up with the jazz scene, it is like it just had to happen with one or the other of them, or all of them for that matter, they just wern't about to be constrained and they burst out with bop. My take on it. Simplistic, but this is how I see it.

John Bartee
January 1st, 2005, 08:05 PM
Maybe it just kind of flowed from the stuff Mario Bauza and me put down after Calloway Gigs. Dizzy would sit in at times.

And then of course "Killer Joe" by Machito.... Parker recorded it as... "No Noise" with Flip Phillips.

zaragemca
January 2nd, 2005, 06:55 PM
There is something with the recording of the song which showed the situation at that time,'he beeped when it suposed to bop', or something around that.It was recording by Gillespie's and Chano Pozo.Gerry Zaragemca,and I already said that Mario Bauza have a lot to do with that.

Fran
January 2nd, 2005, 10:11 PM
There is something with the recording of the song which showed the situation at thattime,'he beeped when it suposed to bop', or something around that.It was recording by Guillespie's and Chano Pozo.Gerry Zaragemca,and I already said that mari Bauza have a lot to do with that.


Sorry but something isn't clear here Zaragemca. Could you please rephrase. I'd like to know what you mean - Thanks

128Bit_Encryption
January 3rd, 2005, 02:55 AM
To say that Charlie Parker invented bop is like saying Bach invented classical music. Many people contributed. Parker was arguably the best performer, but many people, including Dizzy Gillespie, Bud Powell, and Thelonious Monk contributed. IMO, Dizzy was the most important figure in bop/be bop. He knew the theory (a lot of which he invented) and taught many musicians how to play it. He did this with the piano, not the trumpet.

I think that accurately sums it up. I totally agree. Bird was a monster on his instrument. No one can question his technical facility or ideas. But the Bop movement was bigger than “one” person. This particular genre cannot be accurately difined without discussing Dizzy, Monk, Kenny Clarke, Fats Navarro and Bud Powell.

edrowland
January 3rd, 2005, 02:01 PM
Who would be the equivalent for guitar?

Interesting question. My impression as a guitarist is that guitar and bop always had an uneasy relationship. Many guitar greats of the period seem to take only short solos on real bop tunes (very noticeable if you listen carefully to Wes Montgomery, for example), or really struggle to keep up.

In fairness, a good bit of the bop repertoire is not really that fast. A lot of Parker's stuff, for instance, sounds really fast, but when you drill down into it, it isn't. And there is also a good bit of the bop repertoire (including some of Parker's stuff) that is played at insane tempos. And this where guitarists seem to stumble, often losing sustain, falling behind the beat, playing in half-time, or failing to swing at all, I think.

Kessel is considered by many to be a bop guitarist, but, to my ear, he seems to struggle to keep up, and his better stuff seems to be delivered on much more laid back tunes. Maybe he gets tagged as a bop guitarist because he is one of the few who is able to keep up (if only barely).

Honesty compels me to admit that I may just be projecting my own current weaknesses as a guitarist onto others. But I will stand by this statement: I haven't yet found a geniune period bop guitarist who really knocks me flat on my ass the way Parker or Diz do.

Anyone else have ideas about bop guitarists that really play bop well? I'm familiar with a very few contemporary guitarists who can play bop well (Martino, for example, who I'm sure could have kept up with Bird and Diz if he were 30 years older) , but I haven't really found any good early bop recordings that feature guitarists yet.

edrowland
January 3rd, 2005, 02:34 PM
I think that accurately sums it up. I totally agree. Bird was a monster on his instrument. No one can question his technical facility or ideas. But the Bop movement was bigger than “one” person. This particular genre cannot be accurately difined without discussing Dizzy, Monk, Kenny Clarke, Fats Navarro and Bud Powell.

On the other hand, I think it does a disservice to Parker to underemphasize the role that he did play, and the phenomenal impact that Parker had on other New York players at the time.

We've lost a lot of the roots of bop because of the recording strike that was taking place at the time bop emerged. When we hear bop on recordings, it seems to emerge fully formed. But that clearly wasn't so.

Gil Evans, in his autobiography, talks a lot about the effect that Parker had on musicians at the time from a first hand perspective. Bird exploded on the New York club scene like a force of nature. You might be able to make a serious argument that bop was invented, or codified as a result of discussions in Gil Evan's basement appartment during the period. Many of the important figures of the period hung out there, including Parker and Gillespie. But, as Evan's tells it, musicians were standing on the sidewalks outside clubs that Parker was playing at trying to listen to as much of what Parker was doing as was humanly possible. What Parker was doing at the time was radically different from what anyone else was doing.

If you were in new york in the mid 40s, Parker was the man you had to listen to. It wasn't optional. When you arrived in New York, the first thing you did was to go to hear Parker play. (Miles Davis says this too, in his autobiography. He arrived in New York. He went to hear Parker. He found a place to stay. In that order).

It's interesting to compare the way that Parker and others thought about bop theory. While others are codifying the theory that we're familiar with (altered scales, flat-five substitutions, 13ths, and thel like), Parker seems to conceptualize what he's doing like this: "if you play the notes of an A Major triad over G Major, it sounds great!". Charmingly, Parker says that he discovered this by accident, and it sounded so cool that he kept on doing it. Judging from interviews with Parker, Parker seems to extend this approach to many of the other elements of what we now consider to be core bop theory. He doesn't play sharp and flat ninth because it's an altered scale; he plays sharp and flat ninths because they sound good! He doesn't seem to conceive of flat-five subs in the way that we do now. He seems to conceive of them as superimposed major triads, without much consideration for the set of alterations that go with the flat-five sub. In other words, Parker's conception of bop harmonic theory seems to be almost instinctive, rather than rooted in harmonic theory.

Close reading of Parker transcriptions seem to bear this out. It's just barely possible to super-impose what we now consider to be classic bop harmonic theory over what Parker is playing. But doing so doesn't even begin to address the incredible fluidity and complexity of Parker's lines. And frankly, this kind of harmonic analysis just doesn't seem to me to sit naturally with what Parker is actually doing. You can just as successfully work from the framework that Parker tells us about in interviews: that "bitonal maor triads, and sharp and flat ninths sound great!", although this approach still doesn't begin to address the issue of Parker's phenomenal creativity. What Parker plays doesn't seem to be contructed out of bits of theory. It really does sound like "he heard it that way, he played it that way". Sure. All good jazz players play that way, for the most part. But, with many players, you can find the artificats of the theory in what they play; with Parker it seems to emerge fully formed.

My strong impression from what reading I have done is is that Parker played the way he did because it "sounds good", and others were creating theory around what Parker was doing by instinct, in an effort to figure out what exactly Parker had done.

It's true that Parker didn't invent bop out of thin air. I'm sure that bop was "in the air" waiting to happen at the time. But it is true that Parker seemed to have single-handedly made a huge dissociated leap forward that left everyone else scrambling to catch up right at the very time that bop was being born. And it was a leap that was big enough that many of the other figures we credit as founding figures in bop were out on the sidewalk listening to Parker, instead of the other way around.

Did Parker invent bop? Maybe.

peter rh
January 3rd, 2005, 03:06 PM
Anyone else have ideas about bop guitarists that really play bop well? I'm familiar with a very few contemporary guitarists who can play bop well (Martino, for example, who I'm sure could have kept up with Bird and Diz if he were 30 years older) , but I haven't really found any good early bop recordings that feature guitarists yet.
Charlie Christian......Kenny Burrell, Jim Hall & Wes Montgomery (in addition to
Barney Kessel
(suggest listening to Charlie Christian on Spirituals to Swing Concerts and
at Minton's and Clarke Munroe's)

edrowland
January 3rd, 2005, 04:43 PM
Charlie Christian......Kenny Burrell, Jim Hall & Wes Montgomery (in addition to
Barney Kessel
(suggest listening to Charlie Christian on Spirituals to Swing Concerts and
at Minton's and Clarke Munroe's)

Yeaaah. Maybe. It could be that I haven't dug deeply enough into their repertoire. The point I was trying to make was that Wes really is not a bop guitarist. Or if he is, he cheats subtly on the fast stuff (typically by taking only one chorus, or by playing half-time -- strategy duly noted and copied). Most of Jim Hall's early stuff that I've listened to seems to be many things, but not bop. Burrel: yes. Seems to fits into the struggling deperately to keep up category. Christian: a big hole in my listening that I need to plug soon. Bop or swing?

zaragemca
January 3rd, 2005, 06:38 PM
Fran,I was talking about the recording of Dizzy G. with Chano Pozo,(He beep when it should have bop),that's the title of the song.

John Bartee
January 3rd, 2005, 09:30 PM
Find a copy of my musical composition "Mirage"... composed on piano with copyright dated October 16, 1944. You may find some clues, maybe some answers.

"The White Arranger" - John Lewis Bartee

420 W. 121 Street New York, N.Y.

Fran
January 3rd, 2005, 10:37 PM
Fran,I was talking about the recording of Dizzy G. with Chano Pozo,(He beep when it should have bop),that's the title of the song.

The only recording of "He Beeped When He Should Have Bopped" ( that I know of), Was made for Musicraft Records in 1946 before Chano Pozo joined the band the following year.
Are you sure your not thinking of "Cubano Be and Cubano Bop"?

John Bartee
January 4th, 2005, 08:42 AM
Find Emma Browne she is in a nursing home in Florida. All the boxes of what was Popular Music Company is in storage there. Miller, Dorsey, Calloway...
The Attorney is near by... best hurry as time has a way of losing things forever.

Music is not always recorded... sometimes its only published. Then the RED pen invents the RECORDING...

"The White Arranger" John Lewis Bartee

420 W. 121 Street New York, N.Y.

lone_wolf
January 4th, 2005, 04:12 PM
Al Haig was another significant early bop stylist, called "the perfect pianist" by Bud Powell, though I don't think he participated in the seminal sessions at Minton's, not joining Dizzy's band until 1945. However, I believe drummer Stan Levey played at some of those sessions, alternately with Kenny Clarke, and thus contributed to the group improvisational effort.

Correct me if I'm wrong! :)

zaragemca
January 7th, 2005, 09:06 PM
Ok,I'm sorry Fran I was not able to log in for some reasons,for the records Chano Pozo went to NY. in 1946,(invited by both Mario Bauza and Miguelito Valdez),then came back with Miguelito Valdez, to Havana,(specifically to do some recording for Musicraft) and in 1947 all of them(including Arsenio Rodriguez and Olga Guillot),were in NY.,recording again.

clave
January 7th, 2005, 09:12 PM
Well, you still haven't explained what they had to do with bebop! (though there are a number of good sources, in English yet...)

zaragemca
January 7th, 2005, 09:14 PM
I was not going to give all my cookies Clave,but you are insisting Iwould give the story.

clave
January 7th, 2005, 09:21 PM
Remember, this thread is supposed to be about bebop, not Afro-Cuban jazz...

railartist
January 8th, 2005, 01:04 PM
Charlie Parker did not invent BOP
if any one invented bop Dizzie did at Mintons
Charlie, talented as he was, came along on Dizzies shirttails.
Diz was the musician. Charlie was a very talented Alto saxaphonist.

Yea Fran is real close there! Dizzy was always on the cutting edge being one of the first cats to fuse Latin and afro Cuban elements into jazz thus Latin jazz.

Let us not forget that bebop was an exclusive club of mostly black cats who came from the white swing bands. They wanted their own music that drove the white guys nuts trying to figure it out. Kenny Clarke and max roach were certainly great bop drummers of the period. No one person invented bop. I think the term be bop came from scat singing! as in be bop sha bam.

Fran
January 8th, 2005, 10:34 PM
[QUOTE=railartist]Yea Fran is real close there! Dizzy was always on the cutting edge being one of the first cats to fuse Latin and afro Cuban elements into jazz thus Latin jazz.

Let us not forget that bebop was an exclusive club of mostly black cats who came from the white swing bands.

No ! Where did you get that one ? Diz, Parker, Clarke - White Bands ?





They wanted their own music that drove the white guys nuts trying to figure it out.

OH come on now !

railartist
January 9th, 2005, 12:41 AM
[QUOTE=railartist]Yea Fran is real close there! Dizzy was always on the cutting edge being one of the first cats to fuse Latin and afro Cuban elements into jazz thus Latin jazz.

Let us not forget that bebop was an exclusive club of mostly black cats who came from the white swing bands.

No ! Where did you get that one ? Diz, Parker, Clarke - White Bands ?





They wanted their own music that drove the white guys nuts trying to figure it out.

OH come on now !

Study your jazz history, a lot of black musicians worked in swing bands, and vice versa, teddy Wilson? Lionel Hampton? and that was just a few in Goodman's band. . So there was always that rivalry not so much with teddy and Lionel because they had kind of a special relationship with Gene (krupa) and Benny.

Here is a quote from The birth of be-bop a book by Scott Deveaux "yet there is no escaping the fact that black musicians lived and worked in a separate and unequal world, facing obstacles and enduring indignities from their white counterparts. Even as they enjoyed a degree of social freedom and propriety known to few others of their race, they were acutely aware of their precarious status as second class citizens. Bebop was shaped and to an extent stimulated by these social facts. Without the pressure of racial hostility musicians of such divergent talents and temperaments might not have found themselves forced into the same narrow space, and they would not have had the incentives to forge a new path" end Quote You come on now!

Fran
January 9th, 2005, 09:21 AM
Study your jazz history, a lot of black musicians worked in swing bands, and vice versa, teddy Wilson? Lionel Hampton? and that was just a few in Goodman's band. . So there was always that rivalry not so much with teddy and Lionel because they had kind of a special relationship with Gene (krupa) and Benny.

Here is a quote from The birth of be-bop a book by Scott Deveaux "yet there is no escaping the fact that black musicians lived and worked in a separate and unequal world, facing obstacles and enduring indignities from their white counterparts. Even as they enjoyed a degree of social freedom and propriety known to few others of their race, they were acutely aware of their precarious status as second class citizens. Bebop was shaped and to an extent stimulated by these social facts. Without the pressure of racial hostility musicians of such divergent talents and temperaments might not have found themselves forced into the same narrow space, and they would not have had the incentives to forge a new path" end Quote You come on now!


I repeat Diz, Charlie Parker, Kenny Clarke - White bands ? Study YOUR jazz history man.

railartist
January 9th, 2005, 01:06 PM
I probably miss spoke when I said they (the Blacks) in general came from white swing bands. Although a lot of them worked with white bands The point I was trying to make was that they did work together and along with white guys in various situations and there was a racial aspect although not major, to the development of bebop. Certainly you can't say that Charlie, bird, Klook! and diz never played in bands with white guys because they did! So maybe in the earlier days they never played in white bands per say (with a white band leader) But Dizzy even hired white guys in his band to try and break the racial barrier, and add goodwill to the whole scene. So the bottom line is bebop was kind of an exclusive black thing at first, and when I said that they wanted to drive the white guys nuts, I meant that as a figure of speech. Meaning that at first they would not be able to figure out what the hell they were doing with that strange new music. Fair enough! and by the way congratulations on being on the planet this long.

jazzbluescat
January 9th, 2005, 01:34 PM
I don't mean to be impertinent, but, I feel this needs to be stated, and my 2 cents worth...:)

It stands to reason that given the wide disparity of social backgrounds and acceptance between Whites and Blacks at the time, that even though whites and blacks often played in the same bands together, that Blacks would have felt and experienced more creative freedom playing with bands comprised of their respective race. Black bands enabled the development of bebop more since, I think we can all agree, it was a Black innovation.

A "when in Rome do as the romans do" thing, too.

John Bartee
January 10th, 2005, 02:00 AM
I was "white" yet I managed to arrange for swing, afro cuban, bebop. cubop.
Traveled with Calloway in 1939-40. Left with Mario Bauza to create the sound of Machito Afro Cuban Orchestra in 1940-41

Listen to "No Noise" parts 1 & 2 and behind Charlie Parker & Flip Phillips you will hear Machito's Afro Cuban Orchestra. Composer: John Bartee

Saundra Hummer
January 10th, 2005, 03:00 AM
Al Haig was another significant early bop stylist, called "the perfect pianist" by Bud Powell, though I don't think he participated in the seminal sessions at Minton's, not joining Dizzy's band until 1945. However, I believe drummer Stan Levey played at some of those sessions, alternately with Kenny Clarke, and thus contributed to the group improvisational effort.

Correct me if I'm wrong! :)

Stan's story is out now on DVD, and there's a bit about it here on AAJ. I can hardly wait to see it, as he was in on more than most people will ever know, and like he says, it's just he and Howard who are left of the main men from the Lighthouse days. Clark Terry is still around, still playing, however he didn't play at the Lighthouse for as many years as Stan.

Stan having lived with Charlie Parker and Miles during earlier times, has to make for some crazy tales, and then there's the music. Perhaps a lot of questions will be answered in the movie he's made. I just know there's hardly a musician I can name that he didn't know well, or play with. The stories he will leave out could fill volumes. I just don't think that Stan is a kiss and tell type of guy. He won't sugar coat, but he won't diss either, or so I believe. I just feel from the impression I've always had of Stan, that he will tell it like it is, not embellish, or be purposfully hurtful. A straight on look at the world of jazz that he knew well.

Fran
January 10th, 2005, 08:30 AM
Black or white -
I'd like to point out that the earliest of Bop bands and recordings were black and white. Dizzie's Blue 'N Boogie had Frank Paparelli, Chuck Wayne, Shelly Manne and a Murray Shipinsky (?). four out of the six with Diz and Dexter Gordon. And Paparelli was one of the composers of "A Night In Tunisia". Feb 1945.

On Groovin' High Diz had Clyde Hart and Remo Palmieri. Feb 1945

I think the fact is that in the context of the music it didn't matter what color of skin was playing.

Saundra Hummer
January 10th, 2005, 01:27 PM
Black or white -
I'd like to point out that the earliest of Bop bands and recordings were black and white. Dizzie's Blue 'N Boogie had Frank Paparelli, Chuck Wayne, Shelly Manne and a Murray Shipinsky (?). four out of the six with Diz and Dexter Gordon. And Paparelli was one of the composers of "A Night In Tunisia". Feb 1945.

On Groovin' High Diz had Clyde Hart and Remo Palmieri. Feb 1945

I think the fact is that in the context of the music it didn't matter what color of skin was playing.


Fran the last statement by you was how I saw it. There didn't seem to be hold outs such as people believe were there, not as a rule. Sure, there have been all black bands and, all white bands, but the jazz men's bands were often times a blend of many ethnicities, and were based on talent and the musiicians ability to get along with one another, just as it is today with the Rock bands, or any other group. Personalities, musical styles, etc. They had to find the right mix, and often times it didn't matter, the color of their skin.
Everyone brought their flavor to the mix, and we have benefited from it. Zoot Simms, listening to him, would you have thought he was white man wearing red and black plaid hunters shirts? Everyone contributed from how I saw it, black and white. We are benefiting from their mix, their willingness to accept talent, and ideas, ways of going, regardless of racial backgrounds; to have close friendships regardless of that. It was great to see and, don't we all benefit?

Fran
January 10th, 2005, 02:41 PM
Stan Levey was on the Bop scene in 1946. The drummer on Dizzie's famous Tempo Jazz Men sides cut for Dial Records in Hollywood in Feb 1946. Six sides with Diz, Lucky Thompson, Al Haig, Milt Jackson and Ray Brown.

zaragemca
January 10th, 2005, 09:46 PM
Ok, this is the history of the bebop, and also of the phrase itself.First remember that cubans have been in jazz since the root of Louisiana,ragtime,(Manuel Perez,Lorenzo Tio Sr.,the Mello's brothers,etc.).When the young Dizzy G. came to NY. he did meet and played with Alberto Socarras which introduced him to the cuban-structure of music, 'Cubop',later Mario Bauza since the time he was playing with Webb's band was introducing several musicians(including Dizzy G.) to that structure,then when Machito's Band was formed, Parker also was invited to the studios and introduced to that,(with exception to, 'Peanut Vendor' which Parker said it was to trickid).All the jazz musicians which were introduced to it complained of been fusilated from the right,from the left,from the top,(by the percussion and bass riff)and couldn't find the one count, (the bop).When Diego Iborra(which played with Dizzy G, and Parker before Chano Pozo),was playing with them in Birdland,they (Dizzy and Parker) started laughing(Diego was thinking that it was about him),but it was about the face of the rest of the musicians which have not been introduced to the cuban percussion before as Dizzy and Parker had,then since the cuban percussion and music in general is reinforce in the second count 4/4 time signature,this is what it was called at that time 'bep'. Since that time,.. yes, Dizzy G. and Parker observed the opportunity to do something different and requested from Mario Bauza, to get somebody which could play the 'cuban tom-toms', and the name 'Bepbop' came into place.Mario Bauza went to Cuba and did talk to Chano Pozo,also Miguelito Valdez which was sending money to Chano in relation with the recording of Chano's songs did talk to Chano.Chano came in 1946,and the recording of 'He beep when it should had bopped',took Place setting the trent, and the rest is history.

pRogers
January 10th, 2005, 10:12 PM
Its called punctuation. Please use it.



Guess you can't expect much from a drummer. :laugh:

Saundra Hummer
January 10th, 2005, 10:27 PM
For those of us who have English as a first language we still see problems with punctuation, and for those from other countries it is difficult to relate in English, or so I would imagine. Could be that is a problem. Me I have computer freeze ups so often times I'll post before checking for mistakes, just to keep from having to remember what it was I've said and trying to retype it, as when that happens I lose it all, so I just punch it in, and go back and edit later if I remember to. Still don't get it right a lot of the time. But the letter still goes out if you are signed up for it and the mistakes are glaring, so I just hope that most of the members don't sign up for the letter. If they do, well then, oh well!

Fran
January 11th, 2005, 09:24 AM
Ok, this is the history of the bebop, and also of the phrase itself.First remember that cubans have been in jazz since the root of Louisiana,ragtime,(Manuel Perez,Lorenzo Tio Sr.,the Mello's brothers,etc.).When the young Dizzy G. came to NY. he did meet and played with Alberto Socarras which introduced him to the cuban-structure of music, 'Cubop',later Mario Bauza since the time he was playing with Webb's band was introducing several musicians(including Dizzy G.) to that structure,then when Machito's Band was formed, Parker also was invited to the studios and introduced to that,(with exception to, 'Peanut Vendor' which Parker said it was to trickid).All the jazz musicians which were introduced to it complained of been fusilated from the right,from the left,from the top,(by the percussion and bass riff)and couldn't find the one count, (the bop).When Diego Iborra(which played with Dizzy G, and Parker before Chano Pozo),was playing with them in Birdland,they (Dizzy and Parker) started laughing(Diego was thinking that it was about him),but it was about the face of the rest of the musicians which have not been introduced to the cuban percussion before as Dizzy and Parker had,then since the cuban percussion and music in general is reinforce in the second count 4/4 time signature,this is what it was called at that time 'bep'. Since that time,.. yes, Dizzy G. and Parker observed the opportunity to do something different and requested from Mario Bauza, to get somebody which could play the 'cuban tom-toms', and the name 'Bepbop' came into place.Mario Bauza went to Cuba and did talk to Chano Pozo,also Miguelito Valdez which was sending money to Chano in relation with the recording of Chano's songs did talk to Chano.Chano came in 1946,and the recording of 'He beep when it should had bopped',took Place setting the trent, and the rest is history.



This has nothing to do with BeBop.
Interesting tale about Cuban influence, much could be true, but it doesn't come anywhere near the topic. The "invention" of, or development of, BeBop.
To set the record straight BeBop began the day, (or night), in 1941 when Calloway screamed at Diz and said, "quit playing that, (expletive!), Chinese music".
Well, that's a reportedly true tale too, ( but doesn't address the subject either).

peter rh
January 11th, 2005, 11:50 AM
Whitney Balliett - 'The Great Gillespie' (article from - Collected Works -A Journal of Jazz 1954 - 2001)
"When Gillespie appeared on the first bebop recordings, in 1944, he gave the
impression - largely because a long recording ban had just ended - of
springing up full-blown. He had, however, been slowly developing his style
for some seven or eight years. Although Gillespie was for a time an unashamed copy of Eldridge,the records he made in the late thirties with
Cab Calloway - in which he tossed off strange, wrong-sounding notes and
bony phrases that seemed to begin and end in arbitrary places - prove that
his own bent, mixed perhaps with dashes of Lester Young and Charlie Christian, was already in view. By 1944, the transformation was complete,
and Gillespie had entered his second phase."

zaragemca
January 11th, 2005, 01:37 PM
Thanks Peter rh, the musical phrase which Dizzy was developing, was using the after beat,or 'bep', which is the way that cuban music have been structured,at that time the musicians in jazz were using the(1 count,'bop'), to develop the musical phrase,and the bass(except when doing solos),was marking all the counts in the 4/4 time signature....to Fran, you allegation doesn't rebate what I explained, by the time that Dizzy was playing with Calloway's band in 1941,he already had performed a lot of after hours jams with Bauza,and with Alberto Socarras.

Fran
January 12th, 2005, 12:26 PM
Here is a challenge to anyone who doesn't consider Parker the father of bebop: get a cd of The Song is You, recorded 12/52 or 1/53. Transcribe it from the cd. Do it yourself--don't rely on a previous transcription--the experience itself will teach you something. (Helpful hint: slow it down digitally so you get the same notes going half as fast.) It should take a while but it is worth the time for what you will learn. Once you have finished, practice it slowly with a metronome. You will notice immediately how awkward and difficult it is to make it feel "right." Phrases begin and end in weird places and have unusual lengths. They do not follow the natural accents of the tune.
The bridge, for example, which begins with a standard figure, begins on what seems like the wrong beat. You will keep having to go back and make sure you counted right. And there are difficult intervals. After you can play it with some fluency, listen to the cd. See how naturally he makes it flow. He has somehow managed to both follow the changes exactly and still play what seems to be free jazz. He was unfettered by the structure, hearing it as a continuum instead of a series of four bar phrases. No one else except Tatum ever had that kind of flexibility. If you don't believe it, transcribe any solo by any other musician playing changes. You will see the difference, even if you don't immediately hear it.


That proves what an accomplished musician Parker was. But it has nothinng to do with his being the father of Bop. I think I go with the crowd that says Diz and a few other guys developed it and Diz was probably leading the pack. Ref my remarks above alluding to Calloway's problem with Diz playing what he refered to as "Chinese Music".

Fran
January 12th, 2005, 12:37 PM
Whitney Balliett - 'The Great Gillespie' (article from - Collected Works -A Journal of Jazz 1954 - 2001)
"When Gillespie appeared on the first bebop recordings, in 1944, he gave the
impression - largely because a long recording ban had just ended - of
springing up full-blown...... ."


Peter are these the Coleman Hawkins Apollo sides - "Woodyn You", Disorder at the Border" Etc.?

peter rh
January 12th, 2005, 01:03 PM
Fran - the Balliett article does not specificly mention the Hawkins titles.
It does mention " early Gillespie efforts 'One-Bass Hit and 'Night In Tunisia' ".
The article itself is not dated, but refers to Dizzy being 42 - that would be
about 1959.
I'll see if I can find more ...

peter rh
January 12th, 2005, 01:31 PM
from a Whitney Balliet article 'Bean' (Collected Works -A Journal of Jazz 1954 - 2001)
"Hawkins has always kept an ear to the ground for originality, and as a result he led the first official bebop recording session, which involved Dizzy Gillespie,
Max Roach, and the late Clyde Hart. Soon afterwards, he used the largely unknown Thelonious Monk in some important recordings."

(this article was dated around 1955)

Ronny Guitar
January 12th, 2005, 01:33 PM
I'm interested in continuing the discussion about bop era guitarists. I try to dig deep into the history and I find very few examples of true bop guitarists that were recorded at the dawning of the era. I do have a recording of Diz and Getz, and Herb Ellis is credited, but he sits back the whole time. which kind of reinfocres the "guitaists struggled to keep up" idea.
Les Spann may be considered bop, but he was way after it's inception. Not to mention I think he only made one recording under his own name. There are a ton of guys now, but back then, I'm hard pressed to name more than a couple. Anybody care to contribute?

zaragemca
January 12th, 2005, 01:50 PM
For Critic,I absolutelly understand what you are referring to,but remember,we are trying to point out the outbreak in the mid 40's,by 1952-53, Bepbop was already a movement,...again for Peter rh..Coleman Hawkins as I did mentioned in my article(zaragemca's brief on Jazz), was jamming in Cuba in the 1920's so he knew about the Cubop,and have the resources to understand 'Bepbop'.

peter rh
January 12th, 2005, 02:25 PM
I'm interested in continuing the discussion about bop era guitarists. I try to dig deep into the history and I find very few examples of true bop guitarists that were recorded at the dawning of the era. I do have a recording of Diz and Getz, and Herb Ellis is credited, but he sits back the whole time. which kind of reinfocres the "guitaists struggled to keep up" idea.
Les Spann may be considered bop, but he was way after it's inception. Not to mention I think he only made one recording under his own name. There are a ton of guys now, but back then, I'm hard pressed to name more than a couple. Anybody care to contribute?
You could read all of the thread

PDEE
January 12th, 2005, 02:38 PM
Claiming anyone " specifically" invented bebop is probably a bit silly. No doubt there were groups of musicians playing with each other, swapping and stealing ideas that caused the music to develop. That two of the leaders in the movement were Diz and Bird is undisputed, but to try to assign the " creation" of the music to one particular person is too much of a simplification.

Jelly Roll Morton of course, " invented" Jazz.. at least he was of that opinion.

I think Zaragemca's desire to lay the blame on Chano Pozo and Cuban music is worthy of being termed a " Mortonism"

Ronny Guitar
January 12th, 2005, 02:43 PM
You could read all of the thread

Thanks, I did that already.

peter rh
January 12th, 2005, 02:44 PM
I often wonder, who was in the audience at the 1939 Spirituals to Swing concert, and who else listened in at Minton's & Munroe's in1941

peter rh
January 12th, 2005, 02:47 PM
Thanks, I did that already.
So why not ask about the guitarists mentioned ?

Ronny Guitar
January 12th, 2005, 02:51 PM
Because I know about them already. I'm hoping there are people on this board (I'm positive there are) that could expand the guitar/bop discussion.
And I do have a Charlie Christian at Mintons from 1940 that's simply incredible. I've often wondered who was in the crowd that night as well. Sounds pretty raucous!

zaragemca
January 12th, 2005, 03:01 PM
Well Pdee,I'm not trying to blame anything in one person,I only trying to put in the equation,peoples and environmental situations which were omitted at the start of this subject.In historic things there are always 'details' which are passed over.

Dennis_M
January 12th, 2005, 05:44 PM
I think I go with the crowd that says Diz and a few other guys developed it and Diz was probably leading the pack.

I think this is pretty good summary. At least it's consistent with what I've read. Parker was intuitive, Diz was analytical. Parker played. Diz taught (although he was obviously one hell of a player also). Many people contributed, but I see Dizzy as the organizing force behind the bebop movement.
Dennis

LuckeyRaffy1925
January 12th, 2005, 08:58 PM
Ok, this is the history of the bebop, and also of the phrase itself.First remember that cubans have been in jazz since the root of Louisiana,ragtime,(Manuel Perez,Lorenzo Tio Sr.,the Mello's brothers,etc.).When the young Dizzy G. came to NY. he did meet and played with Alberto Socarras which introduced him to the cuban-structure of music, 'Cubop',later Mario Bauza since the time he was playing with Webb's band was introducing several musicians(including Dizzy G.) to that structure, then when Machito's Band was formed, Parker also was invited to the studios and introduced to that, (with exception to, 'Peanut Vendor' which Parker said it was to trickid).All the jazz musicians which were introduced to it complained of been fusilated from the right,from the left,from the top,(by the percussion and bass riff)and couldn't find the one count, (the bop).When Diego Iborra(which played with Dizzy G, and Parker before Chano Pozo),was playing with them in Birdland,they (Dizzy and Parker) started laughing(Diego was thinking that it was about him),but it was about the face of the rest of the musicians which have not been introduced to the cuban percussion before as Dizzy and Parker had,then since the cuban percussion and music in general is reinforce in the second count 4/4 time signature,this is what it was called at that time 'bep'. Since that time,.. yes, Dizzy G. and Parker observed the opportunity to do something different and requested from Mario Bauza, to get somebody which could play the 'cuban tom-toms', and the name 'Bepbop' came into place.Mario Bauza went to Cuba and did talk to Chano Pozo,also Miguelito Valdez which was sending money to Chano in relation with the recording of Chano's songs did talk to Chano. Chano came in 1946, and the recording of 'He beep when it should had bopped',took Place setting the trent, and the rest is history.

This is more of an explanation of how Cu-Bop developed in the USA and some of your info happens to be off the mark. The percussionist who arrived in the USA in 1946 was Candido Camero. Chano arrived a year later and after a few gigs here and there with the afro-cuban styled orchestras in NYC, he immediately began working with Dizzy Gillespie (based on Bauza's recommendation.)

While I agree that there were many latinos involved in rag-time and early jazz in Louisiana and prior to 1947-48 as you stated, the musical style that is being discussed is "Be-Bop." Your assertion that Cubans are to be credited with the emergence of Be-Bop based on a musical trajectory of active participation within a genre doesn't prove anything. I can very easily say that Duke Ellington or Jelly Roll Morton had a hand in Be-Bop since they both had their hands in the cookie jar long before Dizzy, Bird or Monk. But it was Dizzy, Bird and Monk along with several others who developed this style in small clubs on 52nd street in the late 40s and early 50s. Not to mention several years earlier at little club up in Harlem called Minton's Playhouse.

When Alberto Socarras was playing Jazz in the 1920s and 30s and while Mario Bauza was playing with Chick Webb, Fletcher Henderson and Cab Calloway, alogn with every other latino who was asociated with a Jazz orchestra, there was no music referred to as CU-BOP. The style of Bop had not yet been developed into the language we all know and recognize today. Cubans based in Cuba did not create the fusion between Jazz and Afro-Cuban music. This is an American development that took place in New York City by Latin-Americans, African-Americans, Jewish Americans, Italian-Americans, etc.

CU-BOP emerges as a result of the development of BE-BOP and the musical collaboration between Dizzy Gillespie & Chano Pozo that produced "MANTECA," "TIN TIN DEO," "CUBANO BE, CUBANO BOP," etc. The best evidence of Be-Bop having come before Cu-Bop is the composition "ALGO MAS" which is a re-arrangement by Dizzy of his own composition "Woody N' You" from only a few years prior (1945?). The new version features Chano Pozo providing the Afro-Cuban rhythmical layer underneath the brass and reed lines.

Machito & The Afro-Cubans were playing Afro-Cuban Jazz prior to what Dizzy would christen himself as "Cu-Bop." Is Afro-Cuban Jazz and Cu-Bop the same thing? It all depends on the era one is focusing on. Just as the Jazz sound being interpreted by Rex Stewart or Stride Pianists like Willie "The Lion" Smith was different from the Jazz that Miles Davis and Thelonious Monk were playing in their time, so too was Afro-Cuban Jazz being played in the early 40s by Machito different to the Afro-Cuban Jazz that developed after 1948 with the active participation of Chico O'Farrill, Stan Kenton, and of course Machito and Dizzy Gillespie. The Machito Orchestra jazz sound in the early 40s was more along the lines of Ellington or Count Basie. If you listen to the recordings, the proof is all there.

As for how did Charlie Parker invent Be-Bop? I'd say that he co-developed the art-form along with Dizzy and several others. History states that Dizzy's and Bird's tenure with the Earl Hines Orchestra in 1942 were the early developmental stages of Be-Bop. Coleman Hawkins & Billy Eckstine (Former singer of Hines) are also considered to be early practitioners of what came to be the advanced form of Jazz...Be Bop. It's important to note that both Dizzy Gillespie & Charlie Parker participated in each and everyone of these bands (Hines, Hawkins, Eckstine) which goes to show that if they weren't the actual creators per se, that they were it's earliest champions and set the standard for everyone who came after....

Fran
January 12th, 2005, 10:24 PM
Nicely stated Luckey -

I think that about sums it up.

zaragemca
January 12th, 2005, 10:50 PM
Ok,luckeyRaffy,I don't have anything off the mark,Candido Camero came in 1946 with a tour of dancers and went back to Cuba,and later returned,Chano Pozo,came in 1946 also, did the recording with Dizzy G.,and went back for the recording with Miguelito Valdez(Musicraft),and in 1947, he was back in NY.,with Arsenio Rodriguez,and Olga Guillot, recording again....In relation to the Afro Cuban Jazz,you got it wrong,the iniciator of that fire was Obdulio Morales with ('Batamu',in Cuba).....Mario Bauza was the one bringing Italian,Jewish-American,and African American in to Machito's Band,and teaching them in the after hour jams and rehearsals,and the pictures are out there all of them with Mario Bauza.

clave
January 12th, 2005, 11:52 PM
Zaragemca,

I'm not sure why you are arguing with LuckeyRaffy. There are many people who know a great deal about Cubop, bebop, and Cuban music, too. As far as I could tell, a lot of the things you have been saying are highly suspect. LuckeyRaffy was simply discussing them clearly, and in a broader context. (American popular music, not just Cuban music, because jazz was invented in the US.)

There are plenty of music historians and knowledgeable fans who have written good books and magazine articles about all of these things. I'd be happy to post some recommendations if anyone is interested, though LuckeyRaffy knows a good deal more than I do.

One magazine that's worth hunting down: Latin Beat. There's a lot of Latin jazz coverage, although some of it is in Spanish.

zaragemca
January 13th, 2005, 12:00 AM
Welcome Clave,I'm not arguing about his point of view,but to the facts which I know also,please tell me which is the point, which I said, that could be highly suspect...note(not body is saying that Jazz is not coming from the U.S.).

clave
January 13th, 2005, 12:02 AM
Welcome Clave,I'm not arguing about his point of view,but to the facts which I know also,please tell me which is the point, which I said, that could be highly suspect.

With all due respect, your facts are off.

zaragemca
January 13th, 2005, 12:03 AM
Ok,thanks for pointing it out,which one is off?.

clave
January 13th, 2005, 12:05 AM
Many. See LuckeyRaffy's long post, for one.....

I'm outta here.

Fran
January 13th, 2005, 10:30 AM
Ok,luckeyRaffy,I don't have anything off the mark,Candido Camero came in 1946 with a tour of dancers and went back to Cuba,and later returned,Chano Pozo,came in 1946 also, did the recording with Dizzy G.,and went back for the recording with Miguelito Valdez(Musicraft),and in 1947, he was back in NY.,with Arsenio Rodriguez,and Olga Guillot, recording again....In relation to the Afro Cuban Jazz,you got it wrong,the iniciator of that fire was Obdulio Morales with ('Batamu',in Cuba).....Mario Bauza was the one bringing Italian,Jewish-American,and African American in to Machito's Band,and teaching them in the after hour jams and rehearsals,and the pictures are out there all of them with Mario Bauza.

I am sorry, but Zaragemca, you are continually missing the point despite the comments of others. As stated, this discussion is not about Cuban music or Cubop. Even though many of us love Cuban music immensely I do not believe Cuban music had any great effect on the development of Bop - and your attempts to define it as a basis for Bop stretches my imagination - if not yours. On the other had I have enjoyed much of your historic commentary.

zaragemca
January 13th, 2005, 12:58 PM
Fran,I did get little out of the subject,becouse LuckeyRaffy, mentioned the Afro-Cuban Jazz, the timming of Chano Pozo in NY., and making reference to Italian,Jewish,and African-American.

John Bartee
January 16th, 2005, 10:41 PM
We had the 1942 McShann studio recordings, and since the '70s, the Wichita transcriptions, but it had always been said that because of the incredibly stupid musicians' union 1942-1944 recording ban [it was NOT due to any wartime shortages] there was no documentation of the evolution of Bird's [and Diz'] sounds between 1942 and their mature bebop. But it turns out that a fan, Bob Redcross, recorded Bird in his hotel room in 1943. This is the missing link.

Ron S
January 16th, 2005, 10:58 PM
Info on the '43 recordings, from this web site (http://www.kyushu-ns.ac.jp/~allan/Documents/CP_S_1944.html) :



"Charlie Parker Session 43-02-15:

Date: 15 February 1943

Place: Savoy Hotel, Room 305, Chicago, Illinois

Musicians: Informal trio: Dizzy Gillespie trumpet, Charlie Parker alto sax, Oscar Pettiford bass.

Recording: Acetate made by Bob Redcross

Alternate Issues:

Primary Source: Charlie Parker: Perfect Complete Collection, Soundhills JP CD SSCD-8017-34. Vol. 1; Bird Box Vol. 1; Charlie Parker, The Complete 'Birth of the Bebop,' Stash CD 535; Media 7 MJCD 78/79.

1. Sweet Georgia Brown (7:40)

Notes:



Charlie Parker Session 43-00-00:

Date: February 1943

Place: Chicago, Illinois

Musicians: Charlie Parker tenor sax, the rest are variable probably including Billy Eckstine, Shorty McConnell and Benny Harris trumpet, Oscar Pettiford bass, Hurley Ramey g.

Recording: Acetates made by Bob Redcross.

Alternate Issues:

Primary Source: Charlie Parker, The Complete 'Birth of the Bebop,' Stash CD 535; Media 7 MJCD 78/79; Charlie Parker: Perfect Complete Collection, Soundhills JP CD SSCD-8017-34. Vol. 1, items 1, 4, & 7; Bird Box items 1, 4, & 7.

1. Three Guesses (4:12)

Conversation with Parker into

2. Shoe Shine Swing (Yardin' with Yard) (Incomplete.) (4:12)

3. Body and Soul (Incomplete.) (1:52)

4. Embraceable You (Hazel Scott record) (2:39)

5. China Boy (Benny Goodman Record) (2:31)

6. Avalon (Benny Goodman Record) (2:40)

7. Indiana (Incomplete.) (1:31)

8. Lady Be Good (Incomplete.) (1:17)

9. Boogie Woogie (3:36)

10. I Found a New Baby (Incomplete.) (?:??) (Unissued.)

11. I Can't Give You Anything But Love (Incomplete.) (?:??) (Unissued.).

Notes: Until the early 1980s of this set of recordings Shoe Shine Swing and Body and Soul were the only ones known to exist. Norman Saks was the one who traced Bob Redcross, thereby the recordings. In many of these recordings it is possible to trace the early origins of features of Parker's style and, as John Burton comments; 'Shoe Shine Swing is remarkable for Bird's close rendition of Lester Young's classic solo from the 1936 Jones-Smith session.' Lester Young's version can be heard on Count Basie Volume 3, Media 7, MJCD 13, where there is the master and an alternate take,

With item 2, we have the first recording of Parker's voice can be heard when he states: 'What tune are we going to play?'.

According to the Bregman, et al., discography item 2 is also known as Cotton Tail, and by Stash it is a variation on 'I got Rhythm' George Gershwin. There is some doubt whether Parker is actually playing on I Found a New Baby, I Can't Give You Anything But Love, and I Got Rhythm.

Norman Saks states that the tenor player on, Boogie Woogie is not Charlie Parker, but Goon Gardner; I list it here for completeness; listen for yourself and decide.

(Items 10 and 11, not in my collection.)"

Ron S
January 16th, 2005, 11:07 PM
And this info on the '43 Bird recordings came from this web site (http://www.duke.edu/~trt4/jazzsess.html):


"Date: February 15, 1943
Place: Savoy Hotel, Room 305, Chicago, Illinois
Group: Informal trio with Dizzy Gillespie (tpt), Oscar Pettiford (b)
Recording: Acetate made by Bob Redcross
Primary Source: Stash CD 535; Masters of Jazz 79
1. Sweet Georgia Brown (7:40)
Note: Parker plays tenor saxophone. Item 1 is the first recording of
Parker and Gillespie together. Gillespie begins by playing the theme,
then Parker solos, Gillespie solos (first side ends), the performance
picks up in the middle of another Parker solo, then Gillespie plays a
very modern solo with a closing tag along with Parker.

From February until May, Gillespie and Parker toured the U.S. as members
of the Earl Hines Orchestra. Several dates are known, but no recordings
have surfaced.

Date: February 1943
Place: Chicago, Illinois
Group: Variable, probably including Billy Eckstine, Shorty McConnell,
Benny Harris (tpt), Oscar Pettiford (b), Hurley Ramey (g), Bob Redcross
(brushes)
Recording: Acetates made by Bob Redcross
Primary Source: Stash CD 535, Masters of Jazz 79
1. Three Guesses (4:12)
2. Boogie Woogie (3:47)
- Conversation (Parker voice) into
3. Shoe Shine Swing (Yardin' with Yard) (inc.) (4:12)
4. Body and Soul (inc.) (1:52)
5. Embraceable You (Hazel Scott record) (2:39)
6. China Boy (Benny Goodman record) (2:31)
7. Avalon (Benny Goodman record) (2:40)
8. Indiana (inc.) (1:31)
9. Lady Be Good (inc.) (1:17)
Note: Only "Shoe Shine Swing" and "Body and Soul" were known to exist
until the early 1980s. Parker plays tenor on all but the Benny Goodman
items. Norman Saks claims that Goon Gardiner, not Parker, is the tenor
saxophonist on item 2.
Parker asks "What tune are we going to play?" at the beginning of item
3. This is the first recording of Parker's voice."

John Bartee
January 16th, 2005, 11:09 PM
Take a look at this well written opinion.

http://www.jazzinchicago.org/Default.aspx?TabID=43&newsType=ArticleView&articleId=117

From Chicago Jazz Institute.

Ron S
January 17th, 2005, 12:15 PM
You must have misread. Parker, according to everyone who knew him, had a comprehensive knowledge of music theory and harmony. According to Bill Perkins, "he was patient and a good teacher. He would stick with you until you understood."
He certainly was patient with Hep Cat Symphony Sid. :barf:

Dennis_M
January 17th, 2005, 04:03 PM
You must have misread. Parker, according to everyone who knew him, had a comprehensive knowledge of music theory and harmony. According to Bill Perkins, "he was patient and a good teacher. He would stick with you until you understood."

I don't think I misread. I certainly agree that Parker had a tremendous knowledge of music theory, but Dizzy was the ambassador for be bop jazz during its formative years. Anyway, who really cares? They were both brilliant musicians, and be bop would not be the same without either one of them.
Dennis

Saundra Hummer
January 19th, 2005, 05:08 AM
All artists feed off of one another, whether they are musicans, painting with a brush, or dancing to a beat, they all feed off of what's gone before them or along side of them. it is just a natural progression, and music is always in transition, as are any of the arts, it's just was the way it is. I don't have a clue as to who did what first or where it all came from like some of you do, or would like to, to me it doesn't matter, I just know that these were men who influenced and changed music forever and what or who came first, well it might be fun to know, and maybe one day we'll feel we know all of this for sure, but highly improbable I would imagine. This is one time too many cooks in the kitchen didn't ruin the soup, their blending of styles didn't hurt a thing.

zaragemca
January 19th, 2005, 02:59 PM
That's exactly the point I was trying to get across,I have observed articles in spanish,french,etc., where Dizzy G. have given interview and he himself is giving credit to a lot of people around him,including the facts which I did mentioned,but I have observed in several books in relation to jazz,that writers dragged their feed and hands,before mentioning a latino in it.It is like a sickness.

tpt1
January 19th, 2005, 03:19 PM
I heard a very early recording of Bird -- maybe his first recording date(?) -- he was playing tenor and to me he sounded a lot like Lester Young. Just an observation.

Fran
January 19th, 2005, 05:28 PM
I heard a very early recording of Bird -- maybe his first recording date(?) -- he was playing tenor and to me he sounded a lot like Lester Young. Just an observation.

Was this a 1941 Jay McShann recording? Somewhere in "the Boxes" I have a Parker bit on Decca with the McShann Orch.

PDEE
January 19th, 2005, 07:58 PM
The earliest Parker on record is from mid 1940
acapella recordings, on alto, of Honeysuckle Rose and Body and Soul
His next recordings are all with McShann radio broadcasts and studio sets up to ju;lly '42. Parker is on alto throughout

Thie 'hit' was probably Hootie Blues the Decca recording fromApril 1941
again BIrd is on alto

Parkers first recordings on tenor were the Redcross Jam Sessions recorded in the room 305 of Savoy Hotel 15 Feb 1943 with Dizzy.. these are his first recordings with Diz. Oscar Pettiford was there on bass and other musicians from Eckstines band
Sweet Georgia Brown
Indiana
Unknown tune
Bob Redcross repeated this recording set up room 305 of the Savoy Feb 28
Three Guesses
Boogie Woogie
Shoe Shine Boy
Body and Soul

The personnel has been given a variety of listings on this
Billy Eckstein has been listed as the trumpet on Boogie and Shoe Shine

Benny Harris has been offered on Indiana but the final answer has not been clearly made

As for influences, the acapella tracks show influences of Hawk and Byas in solo statements, although they are on alto
It is common knowledge that Bird admired Pres. The Red Cross sets generally get comments on Bird being somewhat " withdrawn".. possibly by having to use the tenor ( Alain Tercinet).. which might explain a possible Pres sound compared to the bolder, Hawk derived tenor styles of the day.

From '43 there is a recording of Bird on tenor playing along with a Hazel Scott ptano record Embraceable you

Although the sound quality of these discs is quite bad, I suppose Embraceable could be said to have some Pres influences present, though Bird's phrases are typically his own.

Again I don't offer this as a " Bird invented BeBop" claim.. my contention is still that it was agroup development with Bird and Diz being its main practioners.

gabegabrielsky
February 15th, 2005, 09:42 PM
Most of the bop innovators do credit Bird with being the real innovator of the music and that they were all his followers. According to Bird himself, his main influence was the pianist Art Tatum, probably the most technically gifted of all jazz pianists, who played extremely fast piano arpeggios. Parker consciously tried to immitate those arpeggios on the alto sax. Then, according to him, one night he was improvising on the chord changes to Cherokee and started going outside the typical range of a chord pattern, to the 9th, 11th and even 13th of the chord. The result, according to him, was one of the first bop solos.

The jam sessions at Minton's happened more or less symultaneously with Parker's experiements, but quite independently of them.

The first real bop band was Earl Hines 1943 band which featured both Dizzy Gillespie and Charlie Parker. Unfortunately that band existed only during the recording ban of 1943 (instituted by the American Federation of Musicians in a struggle over royalties), so we have no examples of what that band sounded like. By the time the recording ban was lifted bop was fully matured, so it sounded more revolutionary than it actually was.

One of my favorite singles to demonstrate the difference between swing and bop is Congo Blues by the Red Norvo Selected Sextet. It includes swingers Norvo, Teddy Wilson and Flip Philips and boppers Gillespie and Parker all on a 4 minute cut so if you listen carefully you can hear the differences there.

I's also completely agree that the main differences between swing and bop (as with ragtime and traditional jazz) were rhythmic. The irony is though that it was always the horn players that were the rhythmic innovators and the rhythm sections had to catch up with them. This is really obvious with Armstrong who was light years ahead of his early rhythm sections rythmically speaking, but it is also the case with the very early Parker and Gillespie recordings where they are clearly rhythmically ahead of the swing rhythm sections with which they are playing.

zaragemca
June 17th, 2005, 11:56 AM
I agree with that,but what about it if we give credit to Mario Bauza for teaching both of them a lot about the structure of cuban music in the after hour jams and in the rehearsal for the recording which both of them did with Machito Band.Gerry Zaragemca