Material/composers who ought to be addressed more.

[Pharaohrock]

What material/composers do you think are seriously neglected today? Or, what would you like to play that you're not playing already and don't really hear others playing?

Me: there are some fantastic Egberto Gismonti compositions I'd like to dig into, and I also think some tunes written by Mulgrew Miller (like "Second Thoughts", "For Those Who Do") ought to be played a whole lot more.....along with the works of James Williams, Donald Brown and George Cables, and a whole lotta other stuff to be sure. Just my initial thoughts...

I certainly think there's plenty of more recent material to play such that people aren't simply playing all the Blue Note classics without a break.

[bubber]

Interesting thread.

Re Blue Note classics: there's a number of good Blue Note "non classics" you mever hear anymore, just take the track listing on Zorn/Frisell/Lewis's News for Lulu.

Clifford Brown wrote some nice tunes I'd like to hear more frequently, like Joy Spring.

OK, not exactly recent material, my point is that there's not only recent material deserving to be played, there are hundreds of good tunes out there more or less forgotten from earlier periods as well.

[JSngry]

The first names that pop to mind:

Cal Massey

Wayne Shorter (post ADAM'S APPLE)

Grachan Moncur III

Henry Threadgill

Monk (the more "difficult" pieces are still relatively unexplored)

Jobim (ditto)

Tony Williams (might be difficult, since his 80s/90s BN sides are all OOP, but he turned into a very interesting writer on these recordings)

But ultimately, playing other people's tunes should serve as a learning experience and a springboard towards writing your own stuff. It's good to have that common vocabulary so a sense of "community" exists, but eventually you have to write your own things - it's the final step in establishing a personal identity. Everything after that is refinement.

[bubber]

JSngry: Don't you think a performance should have kind of balance between other people's music and that of the group performing? I mean, being so much good music out there scarcely heard by an audience, and the fact that it's not obvious all groups are capable of writing a full repertoare of sufficient quality - even after several years of playing. Is'nt it a fact that being a capable or even an excellent musician does'nt necessarily mean you are a good composer?

[JSngry]

Originally posted by bubber
JSngry: Don't you think a performance should have kind of balance between other people's music and that of the group performing? I mean, being so much good music out there scarcely heard by an audience, and the fact that it's not obvious all groups are capable of writing a full repertoare of sufficient quality - even after several years of playing. Is'nt it a fact that being a capable or even an excellent musician does'nt necessarily mean you are a good composer?

Balance? In styles/grooves/whatever, absolutely. If a player's or a group's original material fall into one similar sound, or are not fully developed, then it's VERY wise to play other people's material to present a well-balanced program to the public.

My point is that IF a musician has it in them to write material that perhaps serves some or all of their needs better, or at least as well as, existing material, going ahead and doing it is essential, I think. No, not everybody is a great, much less good writer, but the process of creating a framework that allows you to be fully yourself is not an insignificant one in terms of overall musical developement. Many of the greatest players have been, at best, infrequent composers, But those who have gotten into writing things other than lines over standard/blues changes have usually done so because their playing style had reached a point in their playing where they needed something new to fully accomodate it. Mobley, Trane, Woody Shaw, these are names that spring immediately to mind as far as "traditional" jazz goes. If they had only played other people's material, what effect would it have had on their playing, to say nothing of the adding to the body of work that inspired OTHER players?

I do believe that a player who also composes DOES have an element to their personality that one who doesn't lacks. Not better or worse, but definitely different, and one that should not be stifled, at least privately. Of course, presenting music for public consumption is a whole 'nother ball of wax. But any "true" jazz audience should respond to well-crafted and well-performed original material, I'd think. Unfortunately, you don't always get those kinds of audiences, especially today!

In the end, I think that knowing one's self is the key. If you're getting all out of yourself that you can through preexisting materials, then fine, Louis, Prez, Bird, Warne, and countless others have shown that there's a bottomless pit of invention to be found by doing so. BUT - a player should remain open to any compositional impulses they might feel, simply because music comes in mysterious ways sometimes, and it may very well be that any "problems" of full expression a player might be having can be "solved" by the creation of a personalized framework, AND that other players will find fresh inspiration therein. In such ways does the music stay alive and progress organically.

I guess the bottom line, at least for me, is that there is no one "best" way, and that everybody has a way that works for them. I just think that options should be kept open, curiosity satisfied, and no stone left unturned, ever.

[Phil Kelly]

Originally posted by bubber
JIs'nt it a fact that being a capable or even an excellent musician does'nt necessarily mean you are a good composer?

I tend to agree with this ..they're in some ways differing disciplines. Acquiring the tools and techniques of composition are somewhat different from those acquired by improvisors. The latter requires in addition to a sufficient dexterity on ones instrument and the ability to think creatively in the moment where the former reqires a discipline involving deterity in manipulating the building blocks of music ..i.e. harmony / form /orchestration ..

That being said, many musicians are able to do both fluently ( i.e. Hancock, Corea, Bob Brookmeyer, Jim McNeely, Oliver Nelson, J.J. Johnson .. ) while others flourish more as music creators ( Gil Evans, Maria Schneider, John Mandel .. )

BTW: my two nominantions for unheralded or overlooked composers:

Herbie Nichols
Carla Bley

[ryanoceros]

thank you ^

Carla Bley
Carla Bley
Carla Bley

(and i second JSngry with (post-Adam's Apple) Wayne Shorter, Grachan Moncur III and Henry Threadgill)


BUT that said... there are so many great composers that play in local scenes without much fanfare. I celebrate good music and try not to get too depressed about the lack of interest and/or support for modern jazz these days, because really it's pretty amazing the amount of support and enthusiasm that's out there. At least these local composers can make a living and continue writing. It could be worse.

[ryanoceros]

if any of you are in the boston area i suggest you check out any one of these players that i feel are also very strong composers:

Matt Steckler (his band is called DEAD CAT BOUNCE. post-mingus stuff, amazing and fun to listen to)

Bob Nieske

Philippe Crettien

Felipe Salles

Nando Michelin

Thomson Kneeland (his Balkan influenced band is called KAKALLA and features Mike Connors, one of the most incredible drummers I've ever seen... his use of texture and space is phenomenal, and very tasteful)

there;s others i'm sure i'm forgetting... but if you're going to consider my suggestions at all, these will do.

[Phil Kelly]

RyanO:

What ever happened with Composers with Red Sneakers up there ?

do they still exist ??

[insanedrum]

A name that rarely gets mentioned in jazz circles, until recently, is a fellow who leads his own quartet. His name is Bill Bruford, and has a very interesting approach to jazz composition and jazz drumming.
Another fellow who is slightly more well known is Dave Holland. Talk about a breath of fresh air!

[Pharaohrock]

rynaceros, i'm interested in this nando michelin feller. what kind of composer is he? i note the doubletime record he did called "colours" or something like that.....i'm guessing then the compositions might be very chromatic in nature.