Who is the most influential jazz musician on today's younger players?

[Pharaohrock]

John Coltrane
Miles Davis
Duke Ellington
Charlie Parker
Wynton Marsalis

[Coypu]

Gary Willis have influenced alot of bassplayers in extreme metal which is interesting so he gets my vote.

[Pharaohrock]

Dude, just an FYI- not to be a fascist but I can guarantee you your fusion fanaticism is falling on mostly deaf ears around here.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by Pharaohrock
Dude, just an FYI- not to be a fascist but I can guarantee you your fusion fanaticism is falling on mostly deaf ears around here.

You would be amazed how much you can do with some effort. All that you need is a few persons with a similar taste and all of a sudden you would have a slow but growing fusion unit here. And people should try to be abit open minded, I gladly check out jazz so why can't jazz fans dig into something else too?

[clifton]

I believe it's counterproductive to view jazz idioms in terms of either/or. Why not both? I'll shamelessly admit my first love is Bird and bebop. But I also listen to fusion, from Mahavishnu to Hagans, and I'm an Ornette freak, and an Ellington freak, as well. Jazz is beautiful in all its permutations.

[Pharaohrock]

Most fusion of today is cheese.

[Giant Steps]

I don't have any problem with different opinions and tastes but for God's sake, you've got to stop trying to convert people! It's like trying to convert people religiously. A Hindu and a Catholic might be open minded and not have any problem with each other, but the moment the Catholic tries to convert the Hindu to Catholicism, the Hindu gets a little pissed.

It's great that you have strong and unique opinions but hammering them out post after post regardless of the topic gets a little tiring.

Nothing personal of course, you seem like a nice guy! :)


ANYWAYS... I'm personally a huge Coltrane fan but I would guess that Miles has a bigger influence on younger jazz players. He's more accessable and seems to be more widely known. Ellington, to me, seems pretty "old people" sounding.

Good Cheese,
-GS-

[Joel]

Who's converting who?

:D

Pidgeonhole yourself in one style and you are no different than that boring office worker who i see on the street wearing a white short sleeve shirt and skinny black tie and has the same attire every working day for the entire year.

ya gotta listen to them all.

[clifton]

Yes. You do have to listen to them all. As for Duke, please check out "Such Sweet Thunder" and "Far East Suite". They don't sound old. If you hear the compositional structures, voicings, counterpoint, rhythms, and even modality (especially on "Far East Suite"), you'll hear an eternal modernist.

[Pharaohrock]

I'm just tired of Copyu's tiredass posts that are always pounding home the same message- the "indisputable glories" of fusion. And I would feel the same way if this was someone talking about Coltrane. Really. It's boring and couterproductive. You don't convert someone to a different kind of music by nagging them to death.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by Pharaohrock
I'm just tired of Copyu's tiredass posts that are always pounding home the same message- the "indisputable glories" of fusion. And I would feel the same way if this was someone talking about Coltrane. Really. It's boring and couterproductive. You don't convert someone to a different kind of music by nagging them to death.

Oh, sorry for talking about music I like. Maybe I should just make clone post like you guys huh? But sure, let us keep the music pure here, let us cast out the outsider and erase all ideas of progress and uniqueness. Heil Pharaohrock!

But if it really annoys you so much that I mention fusion then just go into my profile and press "add user to ignore list" and the problem is solved.

[newtojazz.com]

Coypu,

As a newcomer here, I can see why people might get a bit jarred off with some of your posts. While most jazz fans understand the importance of change and evolution to jazz, and many also enjoy different kinds of jazz fusion, you are possibly the only person in the world who thinks jazz and death metal should go together!

It also seems that you try to steer every single topic around to jazz-death-metal-fusion when it's completely irrelevant!

In the context of this thread, which is about great jazz musicians, you are completely off-topic.

It's like someone saying 'who is the greatest artist in history, Da Vinci or Rembrandt' and you saying 'Scott Adams is cool as he has influenced lots of other cartoonists'.

IMHO...

By the way, my vote was for Miles Davis - influential in so many different styles of jazz (Cool, Hard Bop, Modal and Fusion).

[Coypu]

Originally posted by newtojazz.com
In the context of this thread, which is about great jazz musicians, you are completely off-topic.

Gary Willis is a jazz & Fusion player so I don't see how mentioning him was wrong?

[Pharaohrock]

Do as you like Copyu, just realize that your persistence might advance the cause of fusion (a few folks might be listening) but result in your own alienation from the rest of the forum in the process. As for ignoring you as a user, I'm only going to do that if it's clear that you bring nothing to the table but fusion cheerleading. That's not entirely clear yet, and I'll be happy to be proven wrong.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by Pharaohrock
Do as you like Copyu, just realize that your persistence might advance the cause of fusion (a few folks might be listening) but result in your own alienation from the rest of the forum in the process. As for ignoring you as a user, I'm only going to do that if it's clear that you bring nothing to the table but fusion cheerleading. That's not entirely clear yet, and I'll be happy to be proven wrong.

Just explain what separates us, you guys talk about jazz in almost 100% of your posts. Fusion actually is a part of jazz music so maybe I am the one who should be complaining?

[newtojazz.com]

I have a sneaking suspicion that it's not the fusion angle that is the problem, per se, but really it's the death metal references (even in your sig file)...

[Pharaohrock]

Dude, I'll be brutally honest- when most folks discuss "jazz", fusion is nearly always going to be an afterthought. Whether this is right or not is another issue, but I've found with very few exceptions that fusion is not a priority of people discussing in jazz. Whereas, it's quite apparently your #1 priority....actually, I think you're probably more likely to find kindred souls on a prog-rock board than a jazz board.

[DWBass]

Originally posted by Pharaohrock
Most fusion of today is cheese.

Sorry, I cannot agree with you on that!! :confused: Maybe what gets shipped to commercial outlets may be cheese but do an internet search on your fav musicians, who for the most part produce and sell their cd's on their own websites. There's some monster stuff still being generated out there!:cool: I'm new to this forum and I see already I'm gonna have a ball here!! I like both traditional and contemporary jazz in addition to jazz fusion. Jazz is jazz! The common denominator is freeform and improv. Who cares what style it is being generated from?! If it sounds good, it's all good!

OK, I'm ready to be flamed now. Give it your best shot!


Peace

[Giant Steps]

Let's clear a few things up:

1) Nowhere in my post did I try to convince anyone that one form of music is more or less relevant or superior than another or that anyone should or shouldn't like a particular type of music. You CANNOT accuse ME of trying to convert ANYONE.

2) Nowhere did I say I only like one style. I have VERY diverse taste in music compared to most people, so accusing me of "pigeonholing" my self is extremely unfair.

3) I like a great deal of Fusion. I like McLaughlin, Corea, Weckl, Weather Report, ect.. My point is by no means that fusion sucks. I however don't consider Death Metal to be fusion just like I don't consider acts like Dream Theater to be fusion. As another poster mentioned, you might be confusing jazz with prog rock.

I thought I made my point pretty clearly when I first posted but I guess I was mistaken. Coypu, it's great that you have unique ideas about music. I've never criticized you for them. I'm not a closed minded person. What I have a problem with is when you try to inject the same rhetoric into every post regardless of topic, and even worse, when you try to impose your opinions on other people.

Don't get defensive and DON'T take this personally. It's not personal.

Good Cheese,
-GS-

[Coypu]

Originally posted by Giant Steps
3) I like a great deal of Fusion. I like McLaughlin, Corea, Weckl, Weather Report, ect.. My point is by no means that fusion sucks. I however don't consider Death Metal to be fusion just like I don't consider acts like Dream Theater to be fusion. As another poster mentioned, you might be confusing jazz with prog rock.

I thought I made my point pretty clearly when I first posted but I guess I was mistaken. Coypu, it's great that you have unique ideas about music. I've never criticized you for them. I'm not a closed minded person. What I have a problem with is when you try to inject the same rhetoric into every post regardless of topic, and even worse, when you try to impose your opinions on other people.

Don't get defensive and DON'T take this personally. It's not personal.

Good Cheese,
-GS-

No, I'm not confusing prog with fusion. The bands i refer too are mostly Atheist & Cynic and both of thoose bands have their foundation in jazz rather than rock like Dream Theater. It becomes extremely obvoius in songs like Samba Briza, Elements, Textures etc. Atheist drummer was schooled in jazz drumming, they had a fusion guitarplayer to join them on the last album, Cynics bassplayer have released a jazz album, both of Cynics guitarplayers are heavily influenced by Allan Holdsworth and their drummer have accompanied Sean Malone on his jazz album. So it is pretty obvious that they belong more to jazz than prog rock.

And I think that you and others are overreacting, It's not like I entering a thread by saying that "hey guys, jazz fucking sucks! listen to some .... instead". I think that I have choosen a very smooth approach that only is different in the choice of artists but apart from that neither better or worse than anyone else.

I have a sneaking suspicion that it's not the fusion angle that is the problem, per se, but really it's the death metal references (even in your sig file)...

I think so too, and according to statistics it is a known fact that people who are into metal are actually treated differently than thoose who aren't.

[myaltosax.com]

I started off listening to Charlie Parker just because his speed was exciting. I will enter high school next year and lately have found myself drifting towards Mile's older stuff. He knew how to surround himself with some kick butt musicians. I like the way he laid back and let everyone around him have the spotlight. It's like he was some supernatural power or something. I play sax but I like his particular style.


Adam

http://www.myaltosax.com

[clifton]

Actually you guys are keeping things relatively civil, compared to other boards. Coypu: I respect your opinions although I don't really agree with them, except as to Gary Willis, a fine bassist. Is it safe to assume you've heard Scott Henderson? Also in the fusion area let me recommend Tim Hagans, "Reanimation Live", some impressive stuff there, updating Miles Davis' electric sound by incorporating a DJ. Also please check out Ornette Coleman's electric music, particularly "Tone Dialing". Here the music is an amalgam of many idioms and rhythms, including bebop, funk, calypso, and hip hop, often all at the same time, and somehow, it all works. It's very intricate and IMHO, very brilliant. BTW I voted for Miles in the poll even though Charlie Parker is actually my favorite musician. In fact, Bird's music remains the most rhythmically sophisticated, in terms of accenting, attack, and note placement, that I've ever heard. Most musicians have not fully digested Bird's time.

[Pharaohrock]

I voted for Coltrane because in my estimation modal jazz is still the reigning paradigm for modern jazz, and Coltrane did more to advance this paradigm than anybody, including one of its greatest pioneers in Miles Davis. Improvising with modes and using quartal harmony is going to continue to sound modern for much longer IMO. Will it, or has it- become too predictable? Yes, on some level, but I find the best players are still extracting a lot of fresh juice from it. There's a lot of freedom in that music, and that's why.

[ppjazz]

Originally posted by Coypu
Gary Willis have influenced alot of bassplayers in extreme metal which is interesting so he gets my vote.

Coypu . . .

Was wondering if you are a fan of the Willis-Scott Henderson-Scott Kinsey-Kirk Covington group "Tribal Tech?"

I've been following them for some time and admire how they've stayed true to their musical roots. It was disturbing to read (via Scott Henderson interview) that they will probably never tour in the States again due to the state of the music industry in this country. They enjoy much more success in Europe.

It is incredible that so much wonderful music has no outlet for being heard these days due to the controls being exercised by the industry these days.

As to this poll, don't you believe it is a bit "limiting," and suggests there are only a few influencing musicians today? I personally believe that many young players, while admiring and recognizing the contributions of these guys, are not focusing on them as an influence. What about the Horace Silver's, Dizzy Gillespie's, Gerry Mulligan's, J. J. Johnson's, Lee Morgan's, Clifford Brown's, Gene Harris,' Pat Methenys, Ornette Coleman's, Ray Brown's, Jim Hall's, etc.?

Miles is a given. So is Coltane. What's the point of the poll?

[Coypu]

Originally posted by ppjazz
Coypu . . .

Was wondering if you are a fan of the Willis-Scott Henderson-Scott Kinsey-Kirk Covington group "Tribal Tech?"

I've been following them for some time and admire how they've stayed true to their musical roots. It was disturbing to read (via Scott Henderson interview) that they will probably never tour in the States again due to the state of the music industry in this country. They enjoy much more success in Europe.

It is incredible that so much wonderful music has no outlet for being heard these days due to the controls being exercised by the industry these days.

I think that Tribal Tech is one of the greatest bands in the genre so the answer is yes. I basically found out about the band through the fact that lots of bassplayers I listen to have stated Gary Willis as a major infleunce so I checked them out and have been hooked since. If what you say is true then I'm happy about it since i live in europe...but I agree that the music industry is in a sad state right now. But I'm still glad as long as my favorite bands never reach major success though since that usually never leads to anything good for the music.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by clifton
Coypu: I respect your opinions although I don't really agree with them, except as to Gary Willis, a fine bassist. Is it safe to assume you've heard Scott Henderson? Also in the fusion area let me recommend Tim Hagans, "Reanimation Live", some impressive stuff there, updating Miles Davis' electric sound by incorporating a DJ. Also please check out Ornette Coleman's electric music, particularly "Tone Dialing". Here the music is an amalgam of many idioms and rhythms, including bebop, funk, calypso, and hip hop, often all at the same time, and somehow, it all works. It's very intricate and IMHO, very brilliant.

Thanks, I'll check it out.

[Pharaohrock]

I enjoyed Orphy Robinson's vibraphone-based fusion of a few years back. I still listen to those records....

I understand also that Matthew Garrison put out a killer record, and the same goes with one of his compadres from Steve Coleman's groups= David Gilmore. Has anybody heard either of these records?

[jazzypaul]

Reanimation...oh man, what a great idea for an album. What an even better idea for a live gig. I like those guys, and I love what Russell Gunn is doing with his Ethnomusicology band. Not that I think that its the way that jazz has to or even wants to go, but, hell, I'm in a position to hear damn near every jazz record that comes out every year, and I still never hear enough of that stuff. Where is it hiding? Anyone know?

[bombastic]

The duke was one of the great innovators in jazz, check out some of his beautiful compositions- take the a train, being just one, and tell me the duke ain't hip! he changed the way big bands sounded! old music is some of the best music out there. listen to paul gonsalves or johnny hodges! read about the history of jazz! find out where this fantastic music originated! the oldest guys were the hippest guys! they invented jazz, man!:cool:it goes back before a trumpeter from over 100 years ago named buddy bolden. blacks were involved, whites were involved, creoles were involved, african rhythms, european classical improvisation, ragtime and marching bands, and god knows what else are all responsible for the creation of this joyous sound we call "Jazz"! This Music belongs to us all, not to one race or individual, that's an uninformed and immature view of The History Of Jazz.

[jazzypaul]

Bombastic, I totally see what you're saying. But what is Buddy Bolden, a musician that none of us here have ever heard, bringing to the table of musicians NOW? Ellington, I can and will agree with, on many levels. However, you CANNOT let it stop there. Ellington was hipper than anything, and still is, but he's part of an ever-enlongating thread that we can't stop just because you're not hip to what's going on now. Ellington influenced a lot of cats in a lot of different genres, and to see what's come about BECAUSE of Ellington is great. But it doesn't stop there, and it doesn't even stop with Dave Douglas and Brad Mehldau, because I guarantee, some guy will be up and coming and just blow the lid off the whole place all over again. THAT my friend is the best part about this music...it KEEPS growing. So don't let it stop, and don't make it stop by stopping at Ellington...

[bombastic]

I was responding to the guy that said that Ellingtons music is old or out dated. On that point i would follow your advice to "Open Your Ears". We all know that what an individual likes or does not like is to an extent subjective. However, there is a general idea of aesthetics that we all agree upon.(nobody likes the sound of pots being thrown down a cement staircase) except maybe some moronic punk rock guy! So i think that when it comes to Jazz, my personal aesthetics favor acoustic jazz, but that doesn't mean i'm against experimentation and change in the music. Listen to Tom Harrell, for example, who uses limited electric instrumentation on "Paradise", an album with strings. Coltranes "Ascension" is the classic example of wild, way out music, it's completely acoustic, i have nothing against that.......although, personally, i find it to be rough listening. does this answer your question? I never said the music should stop at Ellington, but i do think the finest elements of Jazz can be integrated into the modernization of it. There's nothing new in that though, all of the Greats in Jazz History have done it, from Armstrong to Coltrane and Beyond! Keep Playin' Jazz Man!:cool:

[jazzypaul]

Amen. :D

[Joel]

Coypu,

Have you heard of Dom Minasi's "Takin The Duke Out" (Dom Minasi Trio-Takin The Duke Out)
seach the album at www.cdbaby.com

He covers Ellington's music in an avant garde way. Ellington purists may hate it but to those who keep an open mind, its quite interesting.

Its Live, improvisational and definitely has an edge.

[Giant Steps]

Originally posted by bombastic
I was responding to the guy that said that Ellingtons music is old or out dated. On that point i would follow your advice to "Open Your Ears". We all know that what an individual likes or does not like is to an extent subjective. However, there is a general idea of aesthetics that we all agree upon.(nobody likes the sound of pots being thrown down a cement staircase) except maybe some moronic punk rock guy! So i think that when it comes to Jazz, my personal aesthetics favor acoustic jazz, but that doesn't mean i'm against experimentation and change in the music. Listen to Tom Harrell, for example, who uses limited electric instrumentation on "Paradise", an album with strings. Coltranes "Ascension" is the classic example of wild, way out music, it's completely acoustic, i have nothing against that.......although, personally, i find it to be rough listening. does this answer your question? I never said the music should stop at Ellington, but i do think the finest elements of Jazz can be integrated into the modernization of it. There's nothing new in that though, all of the Greats in Jazz History have done it, from Armstrong to Coltrane and Beyond! Keep Playin' Jazz Man!:cool:

Actually, I essentially said that when I hear Ellington I tend to associate that sound with old people (semiotics or whatever). To me it sounds hokey. I never claimed it to be out-dated, I never claimed it to be anything. I don't mind it and I do respect it, but it's just not my thing.

Also, I listen to TONS of acoustic jazz, among many other types of music. I would say that I listen to acoustic jazz more than anything. And I obviously like Coltrane considering my forum name is a huge refrence to him. So please refrain from telling me to "open my ears" because believe me, they're wide open.

You seem like a cool guy, but it bugs me when people twist my words.

Good Cheese,
-GS-

[bombastic]

i can understand how one might associate duke ellington with old folks, hell, i used to do the same thing up until not too long ago! the thing i realized not too long ago also is that we're all getting old fast on this earth, and started checking out the history of jazz. give a listen to "east st. louis toodle-oo" by ellington, and put yourself back in 1929, and realize that that was radical music then. i still love to listen to it. i see where you're comin' from though- i'm also a trane maniac and tenor sax player- i'm sure you've heard his beautiful album with duke! no hard feelings man and keep diggin' all aspects of jazz!:cool:

[Giant Steps]

Originally posted by bombastic
i can understand how one might associate duke ellington with old folks, hell, i used to do the same thing up until not too long ago! the thing i realized not too long ago also is that we're all getting old fast on this earth, and started checking out the history of jazz. give a listen to "east st. louis toodle-oo" by ellington, and put yourself back in 1929, and realize that that was radical music then. i still love to listen to it. i see where you're comin' from though- i'm also a trane maniac and tenor sax player- i'm sure you've heard his beautiful album with duke! no hard feelings man and keep diggin' all aspects of jazz!:cool:

I really like the stuff he did with coltrane and I like quite a few other things he's done, like on Caravan. I'll keep listening and I'll probably start diggin' the stuff more and more.

No hard feelings at all, man! :)

Good Cheese,
-GS-

[Coypu]

Originally posted by Joel
Coypu,

Have you heard of Dom Minasi's "Takin The Duke Out" (Dom Minasi Trio-Takin The Duke Out)
seach the album at www.cdbaby.com

He covers Ellington's music in an avant garde way. Ellington purists may hate it but to those who keep an open mind, its quite interesting.

Its Live, improvisational and definitely has an edge.

I liked it, they seem have avoided most of the traps in regular jazz and the musicianship was excellent. My only real complaint is that I think this music would had benefittet from an elertical bass instead to add more precition and clearer sound since it sortof smudged out abit in the overall music. But overall great stuff.

[jazzypaul]

Coming next in Coypu's signature section, excerpts from Mein Kampf.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by jazzypaul
Coming next in Coypu's signature section, excerpts from Mein Kampf.

I'm not really into the whole nazi deal but thanks for the suggestion. You can probably expect some classy Anal Cunt lyrics the next time though. Check out their lyrics here : http://www.darklyrics.com/a/analcunt.html They are written in a humorous way and should not be taken seriously...

[jazzypaul]

but, on the other hand, you are on a jazz site. Of course, you don't understand this. But there's help for you yet, Rain Man, there's help for you yet.

[omar zamora]

Coypu,

Not to beat a dead horse or anything, but what exactly, in your opinion, is "regular jazz" and what are its traps? The reason why I ask is because it appears (to me, at least) that you haven't heard a lot of modern jazz. If I'm wrong, I apologize in advance.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by omar zamora
Coypu,

Not to beat a dead horse or anything, but what exactly, in your opinion, is "regular jazz" and what are its traps? The reason why I ask is because it appears (to me, at least) that you haven't heard a lot of modern jazz. If I'm wrong, I apologize in advance.

The traps i refered to is basically using certain elements in a bad way, like walking basslines, the "lame" drumming you sometimes here where it soundslike they are playing on a childsdrumkit that has no bassdrum so they just mainly play on the highhat. It is like hearing the Suffocation clone nr 1000 in death metal who practically uses the same stuff over and over again. Jazz seem to be suffering from the same deal.

but, on the other hand, you are on a jazz site. Of course, you don't understand this. But there's help for you yet, Rain Man, there's help for you yet.

You are the one who usually goes offtopic and ramble on about things not related to the topic. You couldn't be more happy to have me here since now you have an excuse to spam the forum.

[Giant Steps]

*Ding Ding*

Round three!!


-GS-

[Dr. J.]

Originally posted by Coypu

>Oh, sorry for talking about music I like. Maybe I should just make clone post like you guys huh? But sure, let us keep the music pure here, let us cast out the outsider and erase all ideas of progress and uniqueness.

I don't think anybody is fighting new ideas. In fact, the infinite patience of other forum members for your interminable one-note samba has been amazing.

Speaking just for myself, I find it difficult to take your opinions seriously when your tag line quotes someone's need-a-life lyrics like "I derive enjoyment from cruel torture and messy death."

And please keep your fascination with "the gummy taste of anus" to yourself, OK? Thanks.




But if it really annoys you so much that I mention fusion then just go into my profile and press "add user to ignore list" and the problem is solved.

[Coypu]

I don't think anybody is fighting new ideas. In fact, the infinite patience of other forum members for your interminable one-note samba has been amazing.

Speaking just for myself, I find it difficult to take your opinions seriously when your tag line quotes someone's need-a-life lyrics like "I derive enjoyment from cruel torture and messy death."

And please keep your fascination with "the gummy taste of anus" to yourself, OK? Thanks.


Some people here are very cool and open minded, some are not. I'm not judging everybody, only some.

The guy who wrote thoose lyrics is now an proffessor in English, his lyrics are very peothical and he is highly genious in both his lyrics and vocals. http://www.darklyrics.com/lyrics/cryptopsy/blasphemymadeflesh.html#1 You should be thankful that you ran across a brilliant mind like that and learn from it.

[jazzypaul]

The guy who wrote thoose lyrics is now an proffessor in English, his lyrics are very peothical and he is highly genious in both his lyrics and vocals. http://www.darklyrics.com/lyrics/cr...adeflesh.html#1 You should be thankful that you ran across a brilliant mind like that and learn from it.

A brilliant mind like that can be as brilliant as they want, as long as they stay away from me and mine. I certainly wouldn't want that guy teaching my kids past-participles and adjectives.

[Pharaohrock]

Copyu, your shit is frankly trifling. I've tried to be as tolerant as I can of you, but I'm beginning to think you're just trolling here at this forum, just looking for attention by saying whatever you think might get it. Unless you feel you really have something to contribute, please go and haunt a board more compatible to your interests than this one. It's quite obvious to everyone but yourself that you're beating a dead horse over and over again.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by Pharaohrock
Copyu, your shit is frankly trifling. I've tried to be as tolerant as I can of you, but I'm beginning to think you're just trolling here at this forum, just looking for attention by saying whatever you think might get it. Unless you feel you really have something to contribute, please go and haunt a board more compatible to your interests than this one. It's quite obvious to everyone but yourself that you're beating a dead horse over and over again.

Nope, I have learned more at this forum than any other so I'll stick around as long as I learn new things. And you guys keep bringing OT stuff up all the time, I just reply.

[Dr. J.]

Originally posted by Coypu


>The guy who wrote thoose lyrics is now an proffessor in English, his lyrics are very peothical and he is highly genious in both his lyrics and vocals. You should be thankful that you ran across a brilliant mind like that and learn from it.

I appreciate your concern with my education, but I'm not thankful, only disgusted. Filth, rage and despair are not necessarily signs of brillliance. I'd worry if any of my kids were in this guy's class.

[RodneyDude]

Originally posted by Pharaohrock
Copyu, your shit is frankly trifling. I've tried to be as tolerant as I can of you, but I'm beginning to think you're just trolling here at this forum, just looking for attention by saying whatever you think might get it. Unless you feel you really have something to contribute, please go and haunt a board more compatible to your interests than this one. It's quite obvious to everyone but yourself that you're beating a dead horse over and over again.
Man, I think that Coypu has a different approach to thinking about things and doesn't necessitate this kind of response. And I disagree with you saying that he is beating a dead horse, I agree with him and that proves your statement wrong.

[jazzypaul]

Yeah Pharaoh, Rodney agrees with Coypu, so we must all be wrong!

[RodneyDude]

Yeah Pharaoh, Rodney agrees with Coypu, so we must all be wrong!
Wow, putting words in my mouth isn't cool. I said that I agree with Coypu. I never said that everyone is wrong, when did I say that? All I was referring to was the way that Pharaorock was belittling Coypu.
It's quite obvious to everyone but yourself that you're beating a dead horse over and over again.
This is what I was responding to. Please don't put words in my mouth. When have I ever acused you of doing that. Don't do that.

[jazzypaul]

Considering Coypu's many blatant slams against jazz music, considering his pro-nazi posts, and his attempts to minimize the effects of slavery on both American history and this music, no one should be agreeing with him. If you do, expect me to belittle you every chance I get. If Death Metal and Fusion are so much better than jazz, then go find a forum of your own to express those views on. Face it, no one wants your death metal around here...Rodney...(10 bonus points if you can name the movie I'm paraphrasing from)

[RodneyDude]

Considering Coypu's many blatant slams against jazz music, considering his pro-nazi posts, and his attempts to minimize the effects of slavery on both American history and this music, no one should be agreeing with him. If you do, expect me to belittle you every chance I get. If Death Metal and Fusion are so much better than jazz, then go find a forum of your own to express those views on.
Are you insinuating that I support Nazism or slavery? I have never made those accustaions. I never said that metal was the supreme be all either. On other threads I supported Coypus idea of DeathJazz. I'm Rodney, not Coypu, Pharaorock or anyone else but myself. Don't equate anything that Coypu said with me other than DeathJazz. Thank you.

[jazzypaul]

Nope. You support Coypu at all, I'm lumping you in. You want to support death jazz, support it someplace else. Anyone that reads his posts and supports him at all deserves what they get. Oh yeah, almost forgot the post where he talked about the guy who burnt down churches, and thought this guy was the be all end all. Yeah, you wanna support his ideas in music, it means you probably support his ideas in everything else. I couldn't picture myself aligning myself with him on anything after that.

[RodneyDude]

Yeah, you wanna support his ideas in music, it means you probably support his ideas in everything else.
First off, an idea can be detached from any value. I can say I'm hungry, does that mean I'm a Nazi? I can't believe you've labed me in such a way just because I said that I like ONE idea that Coypu said. Wow, you must know me very well to make such an accusation, wait you don't do you? How would you like it if I said that you hated rock just because you like Mungus. He hated rock, but why should you? Wow man, if I said I wasn't offended I'd be lying. But I will not lower myself to your level and call you names or label you like you have me nor will I use profanities. Please stop attacking me.

[jazzypaul]

I'll stop attacking you when you stop supporting a racist, fascist leaning thug. I'm sorry, but, for one, death metal has no place in a jazz forum. For two, if you're going to sour this place with more death metal talk, then you need to distance yourself from him so it is not possible for me to make these kinds of value statements. But let's face it, art imitates life, and if your life is one that is "brightened" by death metal, what does that say about you? Haven't seen too many death metal fans yet who embrace anything worthwhile. Instead, they come into jazz forums and talk about how the nazis get a bad rap, how slavery didn't really hurt anyone, how people who commit suicide should be honored and how it is far better to burn down churches and murder your friends than to play music with a sense of history and purpose to it. Sorry to offend, Rodney, but you set yourself up for it. Death metal has no place in jazz, it has no place in here, and as far as I'm concerned, neither do its fans.

Now, it's not my forum, I can't dictate who comes and goes and who offends me with their idiotic statements. This much is true. If you don't want me to view you in the same light as coypu, don't align yourself with him. His views, however enlightening, have no place in a jazz forum. When someone says...

I think that jazz is doomed to die out musically, sure some good obscure music will always thrive but jazz as an artform seem to have been watered down into smooth almost pop sounding harmless music in general.

and you say...

Hey Coypu, I think you're right. Jazz is dying because it sounds too smooth. All of this new stuff just isn't heavy enough. I want to hear growling vocals and blastbeats but hey they won't do it because they like it smooth. Sorry jazz but metal is going to last longer

IN A JAZZ FORUM, then you deserve whatever you get.

Honestly, in your last few posts, you have proven yourself to be far smarter than you originally let on. I hope to have some deep and interesting conversation with you. Truly. But, to defend a guy who has said such terrible things, on multiple occasions at that, is just not cool.

[RodneyDude]

I [psted my opinion in response to Coypu. I said I 'think' he is right. My opinion can change. I think that alot of people are into smooth jazz, and they like it smooth. So be it, but it is too commerical for my taste. If it continues down that road I don't forsee a good future. I think DeathJazz is a road not travel so why not at give it a shot. Call me what you will, a jazz hater, a booger head, whatever, but don't call me a Nazi. Also I told you I don't support Coypu's ideals. If I think DeathJazz is valid so be it, it's not commiting mass genocide of Jews.

[jazzypaul]

And how many people listen to smooth jazz in this forum? And wait, there's more...Which sold more last year? Mainstream jazz or Smooth Jazz? That's right, Mainstream jazz. So, either you didn't do your homework and ended up saying something really dumb in the process, or you know nothing about jazz. Which one is it?

[RodneyDude]

I never said anything about smooth jazz outselling jazz, please don't say I did unless you can find me saying that. I said a lot of people listen to smooth jazz, I didn't say everyone does. There is a large number of people that do however. This was my reason for even pondering deathjazz. It was another venue another road. I think DeathJazz is a road not travel so why not at give it a shot. How bout some of that love you posted about, or are you going to keep calling me a Nazi?

[jazzypaul]

I'm more than happy to show love to my fellow jazzers. That's who that was directed towards. Your implication was that smooth jazz was the death knell of jazz, but alas, it's weak and dying on its own, while we keep on making good music. I'll show love when you show some love for jazz. I haven't seen you say one good word about jazz in any of your posts. You've jumped into conversations calling it old people's music without knowing where I was going with an idea. You've compared MMW to Dave Matthews and you've said that Jazz is on its death bed. What are you doing here, anyway?

[RodneyDude]

Just because I'm not overenthusiastic about jazz right now doesn't mean I don't like it.
I'm here because in some form or fashion I do like it. So then, what are you doing here anyway?

[jazzypaul]

My posts are all over the place declaring my love and appreciation of this music, as well as the fact that I play it.

[RodneyDude]

O.k. then it is agree that we both in some fashion or form dig jazz.
I'm cool to discuss things with you, just don't call me a Nazi.

[Coypu]

First, I'm not a nazi and not a racist in any way. I am a beleiver of minimising the pain I cause to others. That is why I am a vegetarian and I am only violent in self defense purposes. I am strongly against Nazi and Racial ideas since they cause pain and suffering. I don't care much is you guys till call me a nazi though since I know who am I am and what I beleive but what I want is for you guys to not spread lies to people who are newer to this forum. Thanks.

[jazzypaul]

1) Coypu, you yourself have said that the nazis were no big deal. The same argument that only the neo-nazis use. Let me say that again. The only people who think that the nazis werent completely slimy are neo-nazis. You have come out and said that you thought that America's fear of the nazi party was unwarranted at this point in history. Totally the words of a neo-nazi, in my opinion.

2) In the Death Jazz post, less than 24 hours ago, you made a snide remark along the lines of "jazz history can be covered with a picture of a slave." That's not racist? Because if it was a joke, it certainly wasn't funny.

3) You have come out in support of musicians that kill, maim, hurt and destroy human life and its trappings. In numerous chances to apologize for said remarks, you never even came close. That's pretty heartless man,

3a) so, let me get this straight. It's good that you're a vegetarian because you don't want to kill animals, but it's okay to burn churches down, even though that has a terrible effect upon an entire community?

4) You have glorified people who have murdered others (the guy you mentioned above) and people who have commited suicide. How does this make you a productive human being AT ALL?

[Coypu]

1) In comparison to what America does with the animal... You put things out of their context.

2) It was sarcasm against your redicuouls history remarks, the music is the essense.

3) I support his music, the things he expressed in his music was his true emotions. I think that music like that is better than people who fake it. I never said that church burnings and murder is good though but that is beside the point.

4) Their music, not their actions. Just because you listen to Coltrane doesn't mean that you support drugs does it?

[3pointdeli]

"Yeah, you wanna support his ideas in music, it means you probably support his ideas in everything else."

this is the same mentality that has had our planet embroiled in holy wars for thousands of years.

[jazzypaul]

1) Those animals are bred for food. They do not know that they're about to die when they go to the slaughter. The jews knew exactly what they were up against. Not to mention, that's human life. Are animals more important than humans?

2) So we're supposed to ignore the legacy of the music? No, that's what makes jazz special. The continuum between Pops and today. It should never be ignored, and for it's innovations that have made their way into other musical genres, you of all people should be thankful.

3) You support his music, you support him. Especially if "this guy burned down churches and murdered people" isn't immediately followed by "the dude is such an asshole that no one should buy his music." The second you bought one note of his music, you supported his cause. And you have yet to apologize to the people in this room that have been offended by your cheerleading of the man.

4) Trane's best music was all made when he was sober. Oh, forgot, the history of the music doesn't matter. What was I thinking?

Bottom line Coypu, you're a smart guy who is seriously flawed in his thinking, his taste and his views. I'm offended by your very presence here, and I know I'm not the only one.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by jazzypaul
1) Those animals are bred for food. They do not know that they're about to die when they go to the slaughter. The jews knew exactly what they were up against. Not to mention, that's human life. Are animals more important than humans?

2) So we're supposed to ignore the legacy of the music? No, that's what makes jazz special. The continuum between Pops and today. It should never be ignored, and for it's innovations that have made their way into other musical genres, you of all people should be thankful.

3) You support his music, you support him. Especially if "this guy burned down churches and murdered people" isn't immediately followed by "the dude is such an asshole that no one should buy his music." The second you bought one note of his music, you supported his cause. And you have yet to apologize to the people in this room that have been offended by your cheerleading of the man.

4) Trane's best music was all made when he was sober. Oh, forgot, the history of the music doesn't matter. What was I thinking?

Bottom line Coypu, you're a smart guy who is seriously flawed in his thinking, his taste and his views. I'm offended by your very presence here, and I know I'm not the only one.

The animals in the factories suffer through their whole life, we even castrate pigs without any form of painkillers. I bet they don't appreciate it. They have actually made studies that the animals feel very bad when they are about to butchered, they smell the blood and the intense situation. What species isn't important, it is the ability to suffer that matters. we know that the animals suffer a great deal and it is wrong to make them suffer like that just as it was wrong doing it to the jews.

2) As long as we focus on the music sure, but history itself should be left out and musicians should express their own emotions.

3) Here is a quote from the Hessian FAQ. :

"Anyways it's not like all artists have completely
admirable qualities about them. If we were to nitpick
about everything we didn't like about artists, nobody
would be able to appreciate art of any kind."
- Philip Wang

Lots and lots of great people over the years have had very strange ideas and done some strange things. If you choose not to listen to good music just because the creators personal life then you truly aren't in it for the music but for the image. Shame on you Paul.

4) He was still a drug addict at times, it's not like Varg Vikernes killed people all day long either...

[jazzypaul]

1) As mentioned in another thread, I for one, am in a situation where I have to eat meat. I have no other choice in the matter. So making me feel bad about it won't work. They're still animals, and you're still comparing an animal to a human being. It's not the same thing, it's far worse, and you as a human being are far worse for not realizing that.

2) Who said anything about repressing emotion? But in jazz, and in jazz especially, the legacy OF THE MUSIC is key, both in understanding the music and where it came from. If you don't know your history, you're doomed to repeat it. I don't want to repeat the bleak years of fusion, thank you very much.

3) It's one thing when transgressions are forgiveable, like Jerry Lee Lewis marrying his 13 year old cousin. That's funny. It's a footnote. Axl Rose being a little bitch, that's funny, it's fine, and it's part of being the diva that he tries to look every bit like. However, to put that in the same boat as a murderer and destroyer of culture and community is a completely different thing. And yes, at every turn, I will do my best to tear you apart until you apologize for even mentioning a guy like that in anything but a disparaging light.

4) "He was still a drug addict at times, it's not like Varg Vikernes killed people all day long either..." No, he kicked it the one time. And as for Varg, the one time was enough.

You're an asshole. Plain and simple. Sorry, but to compare one of the most compassionate musicians the world has ever known to someone that was proud to destroy churches and murder people? You know no shame.

There's a Hesher FAQ? It's worse than I ever imagined...

[Coypu]

1) Why should be separate human beings from animals in this case?

2) Alright, I don't see a problem with Death-Jazz then since no one have ever done that before so the risk for repeation is 0%

3) He is no worse then you, I will not apologize for appreciating music.

4) Well, considering that you are responcible for the death of hundred or thousands you are in no position to judge him.

[BariMusix]

Hey guys, let bring in some love. Enough about the views of animals and dietery needs. History shouldn't be forgotten, but it is up to us how we use that knowledge. Let's put our differences aside for a second and talk about music again.

Put A Little Love In Your Heart
(Annie Lennox duet with Al Green)


Think of your fellow man
Lend him a helping hand
Put a little love in your heart

You see it's getting late
Oh please don't hesitate
Put a little love in your heart

And the world will be a better place
And the world will be a better place
For you and me
You just wait and see

Another day goes by
And still the children cry
Put a little love in you heart
If you want the world to know
We won't let hatred grow
Put a little love in your heart

And the world will be a better place
And the world will be a better place
For you and me
You just wait and see
Wait and see

Take a good look around
And if you're lookin' down
Put a little love in your heart

I hope when you decide
Kindness will be your guide
Put a little love in your heart

And the world will be a better place
And the world will be a better place
For you and me
You just wait and see

Put a little love in your heart
Put a little love in your heart
Put a little love in your heart
Put a little love in your heart
Put a little love in -
Put a little love in your heart...

[RodneyDude]

Dude these guys are going at it, how can there be 'love' with so much conflict?