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Coolguy
February 28th, 2005, 09:51 PM
I've always been a fan. He has probably taught me more about ths music we love than any other person. So why is this man, who has done so much pro bono work in pursuance of jazz, considered so controversial?

I would truly be intrested in people's thoughts, responses, ideas, and further riffs.

tpt1
March 1st, 2005, 08:46 AM
Hi Coolguy, there was already quite a lot of discussion about Phil on this (WKCR) thread:
http://forums.allaboutjazz.com/showthread.php?t=7896

gabegabrielsky
March 1st, 2005, 05:37 PM
Phil has a photographic memory. He knows the most incredible minutae about anything that calls itself jazz. Reording dates, who was on particular dates, solo orders, the times of cuts down to the second, birth dates, etc. He also has some rather strange and unlikely opinions, such as, for example, his theory that Duke Ellington was going to hire Benny Carter as his key arranger after Billy Strayhorn died. Given the egos involved and the fact that there is absolutely no evidence for this theory, it is unlikely in the extreme.

Lee Gato
March 1st, 2005, 06:52 PM
Why do you think Ellington and Carter would be incompatible? Ellington collaborated with all kinds of people as did Carter.

Valerie
March 1st, 2005, 07:03 PM
i think it might be fair to say that phil has some fans but also a lot of folks who can't tolerate him.

Marcello
March 1st, 2005, 09:09 PM
Have you ever listened to his show?

Sometimes it's cool. When his information is short and to the point.

Sometimes HE WILL DRIVE YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND with the blather.

As far as Duke and Carter: Ellington used Carter's arraingements in the 30's, just as he did with Mary Lou Williams. But for Duke to have Carter as a musical soulmate as late as 1966? That's just Phil making himself important by implying that he has the inside information. It's one of his anoying habits.

Just play the music, Phil!

gabegabrielsky
March 1st, 2005, 09:42 PM
Have you ever listened to his show?

Sometimes it's cool. When his information is short and to the point.

Sometimes HE WILL DRIVE YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND with the blather.

As far as Duke and Carter: Ellington used Carter's arraingements in the 30's, just as he did with Mary Lou Williams. But for Duke to have Carter as a musical soulmate as late as 1966? That's just Phil making himself important by implying that he has the inside information. It's one of his anoying habits.

Just play the music, Phil!

I am unfamiliar with Ellington performing any Carter arrangements at any time. Could you name some titles? Very occasionally Ellington used lines written by band members such as Juan Tizol's Caravan or Mercer's Things Ain't What They Used to Be, but in those instances those people had a very specific and subordinate relationship to Ellington (ie, as sidemen in his band). Likewise with Strayhorn. Strayhorn was brilliant and it was often said that it was hard to tell where Ellington left off and Strayhorn took up. It's hard to imagine the same sort of relationship though between Ellington and Carter, who had a much stronger personality than Strayhorn as well as a more distinctive musical style (that is, distinctive from Ellington's). The particular controversy to which I was referring was between Schapp and Ellington's archivist, who had spend more than two years organizing Ellington's papers at the Smithsonian and was thus undoubtedly in a better position than was Phil to have "inside" information on the question. In the event, there is absolutely no physical evidence to suggest that Ellington was planning to take Carter on as an arranger after Strayhorn's death so the suppostion that might be the case is pure dream weaving.

But Phil does have a photographic memory. Tell him your birth date once and he will remember it for posterity.

Marcello
March 1st, 2005, 10:51 PM
From the Benny Carter website:
His arrangements were much in demand and were featured on recordings by Benny Goodman, Count Basie, Duke Ellington, Glenn Miller, Gene Krupa, and Tommy Dorsey.

I'll try to find titles for you.

Marcello
March 1st, 2005, 11:16 PM
Jazz is, among other things, a translator's art, and no doubt Ellington fed off his band's playing other arrangers' music -- he used Benny Carter in the 1920s.

From ASCAP:
n the ensuing years, Carter contributed arrangements to the orchestras led by Fletcher Henderson and Duke Ellington,......

Lee Gato
March 1st, 2005, 11:42 PM
"Very occasionally Ellington used lines written by band members such as Juan Tizol's Caravan or Mercer's Things Ain't What They Used to Be [...]"

Very occasionally? One after another after another of Ellington's compositions are collaborations with band members and others outside the band. Moreover, Ellington collaborated on my projects, musical, theatrical, and film, in which he was not the star of the show.

Rocket #9
March 2nd, 2005, 01:00 AM
I was curious about the Carter-Ellington connection, so I asked about it on the Discographical Duke thread. The responses may be of interest.

Here's the link:

http://forums.allaboutjazz.com/showthread.php?p=100820#post100820


Ed

gabegabrielsky
March 2nd, 2005, 04:42 PM
"Very occasionally Ellington used lines written by band members such as Juan Tizol's Caravan or Mercer's Things Ain't What They Used to Be [...]"

Very occasionally? One after another after another of Ellington's compositions are collaborations with band members and others outside the band. Moreover, Ellington collaborated on my projects, musical, theatrical, and film, in which he was not the star of the show.

It's a relative thing. Certainly Ellington was much more inclined to use his own material more than were many other big band leaders (I'd say most, but if I did I'm sure folks would come up with dozens of exceptions). Basie, Goodman, Chick Webb, Lunceford, Erskine Hawkins, Cab Calloway, the Dorseys, Kenton, Woody Herman, even Glen Miller, etc, etc. All of them had the capacity to compose and arrange and did so occasionally but by and large their bands were workshops for other composer/arrangers. Not so with Ellington (also Fletcher Henderson and Benny Carter). Certainly Ellington used other arrangers, notably Strayhorn. I'm not sitting in front of an Ellington discography, but I suspect that, Strayhorn aside (which is, I think, a special case) the vast majority of Ellington's recorded output were compositions and arrangements of his own design. In a rather slimey arrangement Irving Mills had his name put on every piece of music that Ellington ever penned, but nobody ever seriously believed that Mills had anything whatever to do with those compositions.

Rocket #9
March 2nd, 2005, 07:55 PM
In a rather slimey arrangement Irving Mills had his name put on every piece of music that Ellington ever penned,

Not true.

First, the association with Mills ran from fall 1926 until the spring of 1939 (my reference is Steven Lasker from the booklet for the RCA Centennial Edition). In February 1940, when Ellington signed with the William Morris agency. As I recall, Ellington continued to compose and record after that date. Those newer compositions wouldn't have Mills' name on them.

This is also untrue about compositions from the period of Ellington's contract with Mills. Mills' name appears as co-composer on a number of Ellington pieces, but certainly not all (N.B. I'm not citing one or two songs, there are many pieces without Mills' name attached). All this is easy to determine, and without much bother, too.

I'll also note that Ellington says that Mills added the lyric to "Mood Indigo" (Music is My Mistress, p.79), so perhaps Mills was somewhat involved on occasion.

Finally, it's worth quoting what Ellington says about what Mills did for him:


If you ask Irving Mills, he will most likely confess [Ellington is a master with irony-Ed] that he is the man who:

(1) insisted that I make and record only my own music;

(2) got me into the Cotton Club, the RKO Palace, and The Black and Tan Fantasy movie;

(3) had big fights with record companies to get the black artist into hitherto all-white catalogs;

(4) fought with Dillingham executives to have us play in concert with Maurice Chevalier;

(5) achieved our entry into picture houses, which we pioneered for big bands regardless of our race;

(6) arranged our interstate tours of the South and Texasa in our own Pullman cars;

(7) triumphantly secured my entrance into ASCAP;

(8) took us to Europe in 1933, where we played the London Palladium and met members of the British Royal Family on several occasions.

Did Mills get a cut, and a large one at that? Of course. Would the course of Ellington's early career have been as successful without him? I doubt it.

Ed

gabegabrielsky
March 2nd, 2005, 08:05 PM
Mills was apparently very mobbed up, which is why he could get Ellington into the Cotton Club, etc. Of course there was a quid pro quo in their relationship. But if you read Ellington's papers (not just the published stuff) and talk to Ellington scholars (the Ellington Society, etc) it's clear that their relationship was not a happy one.

Chris A
March 3rd, 2005, 07:27 AM
Mills was a crook and, in his need to feed his greed, it behooved him to do things that--on the surface, at least--benefitted Duke. The music business is full of such people, and adding lyrics to a tune is frequently just another ploy to share in its royalties. In fact, many an added lyric remained unsung while the "composer" got his half. Some music publishing businesses even had staff members for the purpose of adding a verse or two of lyrics, enough to qualify as "co-composer)--Don Raye, anyone?

It is simply a legitimized scam perpetrated by the music industry and--as we see here--largely accepted by a naïve public.

Lee Gato
March 3rd, 2005, 12:07 PM
gabegabrielsky

Of course Ellington relied upon himself as a composer and arranger more than most band leaders did. But the assertion you made was that only "very occasionally" did Ellington use material from other composers. And that is just not true since Ellington often used material from sources other than himself (or Strayhorn).

Then in reply to my correction you make another factual misstatement - that Irving Mills added his name to "every piece of music Ellington ever penned."

That is yet another in a series of falsehoods that you've been posting on this forum.

Would it be too much to ask that you think more carefully about what you post so that you don't continue to spread misinformation? It's one thing to make mistakes (I hope to always be ready to admit any I've made), but another to spout them like a Gatling gun.

Marcello
March 10th, 2005, 09:31 PM
gabegabrielsky


Would it be too much to ask that you think more carefully about what you post so that you don't continue to spread misinformation? It's one thing to make mistakes (I hope to always be ready to admit any I've made), but another to spout them like a Gatling gun.
Can I add a "well said"?

Rocket #9
March 11th, 2005, 12:46 AM
Mills was a crook and, in his need to feed his greed, it behooved him to do things that--on the surface, at least--benefitted Duke. The music business is full of such people, and adding lyrics to a tune is frequently just another ploy to share in its royalties. In fact, many an added lyric remained unsung while the "composer" got his half. Some music publishing businesses even had staff members for the purpose of adding a verse or two of lyrics, enough to qualify as "co-composer)--Don Raye, anyone?

It is simply a legitimized scam perpetrated by the music industry and--as we see here--largely accepted by a naïve public.

Thanks for including me in the "naive public", Chris. Did you actually read my post? I never said Mills was a nice guy, I was correcting Gabe's nonsense about writing credits. Regarding the lyric scam, of course this happened, and I'm sure it still happens. The point is that Ellington mentions Mill's lyric, and not in an especially negative manner (he also doesn't mention Bigard, who's also credited). Possibly Ellington was no stranger to this game himself. Rex Stewart felt the Duke had appropriated a couple of his compositions (I can look this up if I have to, but I'm pretty sure it's in Jazz Masters of the 30s).

I doubt Mills had either a literal or figurative gun to Ellington's head when Duke was writing the book, but hell, you're the expert, perhaps you can explain why Ellington mentioned Mills at all? Am I naive for quoting Ellington?

The "on the surface, at least" is very cute, implying greater knowledge on your part without actually offering any information. So was Ellington bamboozled by Mills? Why mention him at all, let alone favorably? Of course Mills got his cut; all those guys did.

I'll give Ellington the last word. "We dissolved our business relationship agreeably and, in spite of how much he had made on me, I respected the way he operated. He had always preserved the dignity of my name. Duke Ellington had an unblemished image, and that is the most anybody can do for anybody."

Ed

Lee Gato
March 11th, 2005, 02:22 AM
Are songs that are sometimes sung and have Mills as the only credited lyricist ones for which he did right the lyrics? Or did other people write them?

Saxman
March 11th, 2005, 08:28 AM
Are songs that are sometimes sung and have Mills as the only credited lyricist ones for which he did right the lyrics? Or did other people write them?

I've heard both sides, but the majority of the opinions lean toward Mills having nothing to do with the lyrics.

Valerie
March 11th, 2005, 12:42 PM
Sometimes HE WILL DRIVE YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND with the blather.

My favorite personal anecdote - it's summer and I got a gig out on Lawn Guyland (this is when I'm living in the Slope). It's Brownie's birthday and, after I've tossed the bass in the back of the car and started'er up, hear the end of a tune. Schaap comes on and starts talking. I drive up 9th St. to 8th Ave. and hang a left, drive the 15 or so blocks to Flatbush, hang a right and go around the traffic circle to get to Eastern Parkaway. I drive down the Parkway to Atlantic Ave. and hang a right, drive 10 or so blocks to get to Southern Conduit. Stay on Conduit til I hit the Belt Parkway. Take Belt Parkway to Southern State. And FINALLY after I get on Southern State Parkway, Phil stops talking and plays another cut.

ROTFLMAO!! thanks for that good one, ed!

Rocket #9
March 11th, 2005, 09:14 PM
Are songs that are sometimes sung and have Mills as the only credited lyricist ones for which he did right the lyrics? Or did other people write them?

Good question. Also, were some (or all) of "his" lyrics so dud as to be thrown out and replaced entirely?

I'd love to read a book about guys like Mills, Glaser, and Williams. I think their careers are fascinating, and it would be interesting to have some useful commentary on their overall effect on jazz. Undoubtedly the whole thing would be pretty sordid, but it's stuff worth knowing.

Ed

Marcello
March 11th, 2005, 09:31 PM
Sometimes HE WILL DRIVE YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND with the blather.

And FINALLY after I get on Southern State Parkway, Phil stops talking and plays another cut.


Sounds you got easy that day Ed! After all, he is much, much worse when it's someone's birthday!

The sordid thing about it is: HE KNOWS HE's BEING A PAIN IN THE ASS!

tpt1
March 17th, 2005, 01:15 PM
This morning I ran outside to move my car by 8:30 (you know, alternate side parking in NYC). I get into the car and turn on WKCR. It's 8:27. Phil's already talking. He's setting up a 12 bar blues chorus by Bird on a Jay McShann recording. Guess what time the actual cut came on? 8:47! :eek: That's 20 minutes of talking (that I heard anyway, I don't know how long he was talking before I got in the car) to set up 48 second Bird solo. Now that's the gift of gab! He was also plugging his class at JALC.

Valerie
March 17th, 2005, 02:12 PM
This morning I ran outside to move my car by 8:30 (you know, alternate side parking in NYC). I get into the car and turn on WKCR. It's 8:27. Phil's already talking. He's setting up a 12 bar blues chorus by Bird on a Jay McShann recording. Guess what time the actual cut came on? 8:47! :eek: That's 20 minutes of talking (that I heard anyway, I don't know how long he was talking before I got in the car) to set up 48 second Bird solo. Now that's the gift of gab! He was also plugging his class at JALC.

OY!!! you can keep him in ny, ok?!? lol!!

Coolguy
March 22nd, 2005, 12:44 AM
Well, actually two things:
1. Despite his verbal diarrhea, he knows more about his subject matter than I do--even though I've heard him so much that I'm very slowly starting to catch up. I find his shows generally to be learning experiences. I expect to be taught, rather than entertained or inspired when I listen to him. I get entertained and inspired with other sounds in other ways.

Which bring me to Point 2:

2. He does have a private stash that I've never heard elsewhere. When he does shut up he plays some incredible, entertaining, and inspiring stuff.

Here's my favorite Schaap story:

About a week before I attended a concert in NYC which he emceed, I went to a showing of jazz films at Lincoln Center. One clip was of Louis and Dizzy playing "Umbrella Man," together--a wonderful, loving trans-genre happy communication between two greats. Watching it raised a question that I knew Phil could answer. So I approched him after the concert and the conversation went like this:

ME: "I saw a film clip of Louis and Dizzy playing together and...."

PHIL: (interrupting) "The Umbrella Man, Timex All-Star Jazz Show, January 7, 1959."

ME: "That wasn't my question."

PHIL: "Oh..."

ME: "I wanted to know if they had ever recorded anything else together?"

PHIL: "No."

He got to show off his brilliance, but I did get my answer.

James
March 22nd, 2005, 02:44 AM
OY!!! you can keep him in ny, ok?!? lol!!

Despite Coolguy's above post, I'll have to concur with Val's sentiments. Anyone who talks as much as this guy does overlooks the most basic point regarding the role of the jazz dj ------ which is to shine the spotlight on the music and the musicians while STAYING THE FU** OUT OF THE SPOTLIGHT THEMSELVES!!!

Chris A
March 22nd, 2005, 07:41 AM
He got to show off his brilliance, but I did get my answer.


I don't see how knowing the date of a historic telecast is any indication of brilliance. I have known many moldy fig record collectors who could recite matrix numbers at the drop of a needle. They were not brilliant, they were obsessed.

Peter Aaron
March 22nd, 2005, 08:50 AM
Let me start by saying that I hired Phil Schapp to be the DJ at my wedding in 2001. No lie; we also had Frank Vignola's Hot Club U.S.A. taking care of the live music -- was quite a soiree!
The only regret I have about moving to the beautiful Catskills, away from the metro-NYC morass, is not being able to hear WKCR on the car radio (true, it's on the Web, but I don't really enjoy sitting in front of my computer to listen to the radio.)
Phil may be the windiest guy on the radio (he drives my wife bonkers), and, Schapp junkie that I am, even I occasionally find myself wishing he'd cut to the chase. But the man is a national treasure, and his bottomless well of knowledge has been immeasurably inspirational to me as both a music writer and a music fan. He is who is he is, but it's safe to say that without him huge swaths of jazz history would simply have been allowed to evaporate. No, we wouldn't want every DJ on the radio to be as verbose as he is, but at the same time the music needs someone who cares so passionately about it as he does. He's truly irreplaceable, and on par in importance with many of the jazz figures about whom he shares his knowledge. Thank god he's relativley young and in good health!
I normally distrust the Grammys, but Phil's won SEVEN of them for his liner notes and remastering work. At least they got those awards right. :clap:

Chris A
March 22nd, 2005, 09:17 AM
...it's safe to say that without him huge swaths of jazz history would simply have been allowed to evaporate.

Without Schaap, huge swaths of jazz history would not have been severely distorted. I hate to be so frank, but you have been taken in by your local "national treasure." There are many dedicated jazz collectors who know as much about jazz history as Schaap does--the difference is that they don't have a radio show and they don't feel a need to impress others with their knowledge. Perhaps more important, they don't feel a need to make up stories. Someone who is truly dedicated to the music will delight in having an opportunity to share it with others, he/she will not spend most of his/her air time rambling on with repetitious trivia.

As for the Grammy-winning notes, I wish you could see some of the original texts handed in by Schaap. Credit goes to those who edit them, even though they occasionally leave Schaap's factual errors intact.

James
March 22nd, 2005, 04:49 PM
I have known many moldy fig record collectors who could recite matrix numbers at the drop of a needle. They were not brilliant, they were obsessed.

On the mark. A strong memory can retain a large amount of information. Brilliance is the term used to describe strength in *interpreting* information, and making creative (and valid!) extrapolations from it.

Coolguy
March 22nd, 2005, 08:14 PM
I suspect the reason he laid all that unsolicited data about the telecast on me was to impress me with his knowledge--without having the courtesy to answer my question or even wait for me to complete it. I was offended--not impressed.

Lee Gato
March 22nd, 2005, 08:29 PM
I think it's possible to have a good show that has more commentary than music. Not every show needs to have 55 min per hour of music. Whether Schaap's commentary is cogent, though, I don't opine.

Since the "Umbrella Man" performance is said to be the only televised performance of Armstong with Gillespie, I guess it's the one in which Gillespie, while singing, accidentally spits on Armstrong.

James
March 22nd, 2005, 09:08 PM
I think it's possible to have a good show that has more commentary than music. Not every show needs to have 55 min per hour of music.

While I agree with sentence #2, I'll respectfully disagree with #1. Veteran and novice jazz listeners alike ultimately make their decisions on what jazz they buy based on what they actually *hear.* Limit the number of plays an artist gets (by virtue of excessive babble) and you limit positive reinforcement of the artist's work. The slogan "A picture is worth a thousand words" applies to this discussion.

Lee Gato
March 23rd, 2005, 10:54 AM
I agree that most shows should pack as much music as possible. But I feel that there may be exceptions. Not every single jazz show on every single station must eschew extensive commentary. I don't view the purpose of jazz radio as helping artists sell albums, though one hopes that that is one of the added benefits. To me, the purpose of jazz radio is to get the music heard, for its own sake, and in some contexts, to give insightful commentary about the music.

Chris A
March 23rd, 2005, 12:08 PM
I don't care how insightful a presenter is, nothing he can say justifies talking for 20 minutes to play a 3-minute cut. In Schaap's case, much of what he says is blather--inaccurate information presented as fact and an awful lot of silly conjecture. He also chronically repeats himself, and makes it very clear that--in his own mind--he is more important than the music.

Well, he isn't--doesn't even come close, IMO. I can see him doing weddings, however. :soapbox

James
March 23rd, 2005, 12:23 PM
I agree that most shows should pack as much music as possible. But I feel that there may be exceptions. Not every single jazz show on every single station must eschew extensive commentary.

We're in basic agreement on this issue. It's my understanding, however, that Mr. Shaap is the only jazz dj on the station where he holds court. Forgive me if I'm wrong on that one. And LG, I hear where you're coming from re. the issue of getting the music heard for it's own sake, but if I may relate a story..........

I walked into a Tower Record store while they were playing Milt Jackson's "Soul Route" LP. As I was waiting in line with my purchase I noticed the guy in front of me had was buying a copy of the album. So I said.......
"Ah --- you liked what you heard and you decided to grab this one, eh?" His response ---- "Oh no ----- I heard this on KSDS." Since I'd been giving this recording good air-play during my shows on the station it was a *most* satisfying moment.

Edit after seeing Chris A's post: Never having heard Phil myself, I've formed my opinions based on *multiple* negative commentaries from persons who clearly know the music. If you feel you need to ramble 20 minutes to set up a 3 minute piece --- write a damn book. You're operating in the wrong media.

James
March 23rd, 2005, 12:35 PM
I suspect the reason he laid all that unsolicited data about the telecast on me was to impress me with his knowledge--without having the courtesy to answer my question or even wait for me to complete it. I was offended--not impressed.

Sorry 'bout that.

Chris A
March 23rd, 2005, 06:00 PM
James, Phil is by no means the only jazz show host on WKCR, but he is the only one who spends most of his air time talking and puffing himself up--that's why he is talked about and the station's dedicated guys aren't. Ted Planken's interviews, for example, are conducted with an intelligent approach and not mired in silly trivia and conjecture; Ben Young (you may recognize the name from Verve Records) takes care of business in an authoritative manner that Schaap's endless trivia pursuit cannot begin to approximate.

James
March 24th, 2005, 02:36 AM
Thanks for clearing that one up, Chris. I obviously had wires crossed here.

Steve Reynolds
March 27th, 2005, 07:18 AM
hello, Chris :cool:

what Chris said

Schaap is so fiilled with his own self-importance that he is IMPOSSIBLe it listen to

and tell me how playing 87 airshots of unlistenable quality of some Bird performance is contributing to anything other than his own ego?

enoughm already

it would be nice if he knew *anyhting* about today's jazz and would be willing to sprwad *that* message


Ancient to the Future, baby

gabegabrielsky
March 27th, 2005, 03:55 PM
"Schaap is so fiilled with his own self-importance that he is IMPOSSIBLe it listen to"

Maybe, but he also really does know a lot of stuff and he has a steel trap memory. If you meet him casually one of the first questions he will ask you (kind of nerdy, I'll admit) is your birth date. He might not meet you again for decades, but when he does, the first thing he will do while shaking your hand is accurately tell you your birthdate!

jazzcritic
March 27th, 2005, 04:52 PM
Unless you are doing an interview with an artist, I feel that jazz radio programs should be focusing on the music, not the host blathering on forever.
It is sometimes tempting to share information not available to the general public, but hopefully in small doses, if it is really relevant at all.

I don't bother to tune into radio on the internet in any case. I have plenty of good music (heard and unheard) sitting on my shelves and floor at home.

gabegabrielsky
March 27th, 2005, 05:05 PM
"[QUOTE=jazzcritic]Unless you are doing an interview with an artist, I feel that jazz radio programs should be focusing on the music, not the host blathering on forever."

On person's blathering is another's interesting discourse. Phil isn't always right about everything, but who is? Also, especially for new listeners and people unfamiliar with a particular artist, Phil is a wealth of information. I think this can be especially important to draw one's attention to a particular artist or selection that one might not have particularly considered or understood. It's not just a matter of recording dates, personnel or solo order (which I think is essential and all too few jazz disc jockeys call attention to these rudiments at all), but the subtlties of a particular piece or solo, or its historical significance.

There are dozens if not hundreds of examples of this. Context can be extremely important. Take a piece like Four Brothers. If it had been recorded 10 years later, it would still have been an extremely compelling big band piece, but recorded when it was is a very important part of what made it important.

clifton
March 28th, 2005, 09:34 AM
I like Schapp's writing, even if credit actually belongs to his editors. But on the air, he's an egotistical blowhard. And I have it from a reliable source that he's the same way when he's off-mike, too.

Incidentally, Phil's father, Walter, was one of the first jazz critics, and when I met him, circa 1996, he seemed like a nice guy.

Chris A
March 28th, 2005, 09:52 AM
You are right about the apple falling far from the tree in this case, Clifton. Phil does not become conceited only when he faces a microphone. IMO, he suffers from a self-assurance deficiency which he vainly* attempts to over-compensate for. In that wretched process, we all are made to suffer.

* Pun unintended but noted.

CCJ
April 1st, 2005, 12:59 PM
I thank tpt1 for pointing out in the second posting on this thread that the "Phil Schaap question" already had a fairly thorough hashing out on a previous thread:

http://forums.allaboutjazz.com/showthread.php?t=7896

I suppose it was too much to hope that Coolguy and others would be sated by that discussion. It appears that we are all addicted to our own blather. So we have people weighing in on the subject who:

Have never heard Phil or WKCR and comment based on their fantasy of what Schaap and the station are about.

Tell us that his commentary goes on forever and is pure torture to listen to. Yet they are strangely incapable of turning away from the horror of it all. Instead of changing the station or playing a cd or turning off the radio they remember in detail the subject and timings of Phil's musings. And they return again and again!

Bemoan that there isn't enough music being played to elicit a "must buy cd" response even though Phil's regular show "Bird Flight" is focused solely on Charlie Parker. Shame on any solid jazz lover who doesn't already have all of Bird's major label releases in one form or another.

Claim that Phil is in essence a liar and a scoundrel destroying true jazz history. And the insults are becoming personal in nature. If ChrisA keeps grinding his ax at this accelerated rate he'll be left with a splintered piece of ash in his hands.

According to the Columbia Spectator, a publication of Columbia University (which has the WKCR license), the latest WKCR fundraiser 1/22-29/05 raised $225,000. Forty percent of that, $90,000, was raised during Bird Flight. Not bad for a 70 minute, weekday only show.

Folks, you have lots of choices. Don't like Phil? Don't listen. As a public service, here are the regularly scheduled Phil Schaap programs:

Bird Flight, M-F, 8:20am - 9:30am
Out to Lunch, Mon., noon - 3pm
Traditions in Swing, Sat, 6pm - 9pm

Listen at your own peril or listen for your enjoyment. To each his own.
Regardless of your choice, please sample the other diverse shows on WKCR.

Chris A
April 1st, 2005, 05:34 PM
What a dumb plug for Phil that was. :sleeping:

davew
April 1st, 2005, 11:43 PM
Phil,
Please continue to share your insightful and inspired thoughts on jazz with us,its one of the main reasons why i tune in.

chris,
When phil graces us on the airwaves,turn your radio...........off.

Chris A
April 2nd, 2005, 06:49 AM
chris,
When phil graces us on the airwaves,turn your radio...........off.


My radio is turned off or tuned elsewhere whenever Phil starts his blather--it has been that way for years. There have been times when a colleague called me to share a particularly embarrassing Schaap moment (he is, after all, somewhat of an inside joke), so I don't need to actually listen to a broadcast to know that he is still carrying on with his fantasy-based revision of fact, and that he continues to favor his own rambling commentary over the music. I have, however, seen and heard in a more direct way Phil's misguided reissue work; it was always laughable, but it took an even more ludicrous path before the record companies finally opened their eyes and ears to his ineptitude in that field.

Sorry to have joined in with my own, bothersome, opinion (some will call it a reality check, others will fiercely disagree); you seem to have a preference for revisionist history and unbridled ego. I happen to rate the music above any presentation of it, I also like my historical facts served straight, and I much prefer reasoned, authoritative opinion to preposterous assumption. That's why I only listen to WKCR when the focus is on the music and the presenter genuinely shares my love for it.

So, what we have here is different values. I have expressed mine, you have expressed yours. I have not told you or anyone else what to listen to or when to turn off the radio--you might do well to consider a similar approach.

clinthopson
April 4th, 2005, 01:11 PM
I've never heard Schaap on the radio since I'm on the left coast but I'll never forgive him for that padded, bloated Billie Holiday box with every bit of studio chatter and false starts included. What a rip off!

Chris A
April 4th, 2005, 01:46 PM
You haven't missed a thing, Clint. I caught him this morning, talking a blue streak with a repetitive, self-serving pitch for donations, playing the occasional Billie record, and mentioning his own name as many as three times in one minute! DJs are known to have inflated egos, but Phil is the Hindenburg.

You should really try to catch him online at wkcr.com. You won't hear a lot of Billie, but he gives you more talk than most talk radio shows, and he says absolutely nothing worth remembering.

Yesterday I caught Ted Planken (who knows his stuff and doesn't make up stories) and some other guy whose name I didn't catch (because he did not feel a need to give it every minute :)). Even when Phil is not doing his me-me-me thing, there is--during this lengthy Billie trek--a great deal of talk, because they are desperately trying to raise money for the station.

People were wondering how they were going to fill two weeks with Billie--the answer is: they don't even try. It's pitch with a bit of Billie thrown in.

clifton
April 5th, 2005, 11:36 AM
Even though we had an older thread on similar subject matter, we have a lot of new members, so I think it's OK to let them comment here. Other than that, let's try to avoid being repititious or overly insulting.

gabegabrielsky
April 7th, 2005, 06:00 PM
Even though we had an older thread on similar subject matter, we have a lot of new members, so I think it's OK to let them comment here. Other than that, let's try to avoid being repititious or overly insulting.

"Overly" is such a subjective notion. One guy's gratuitous insult is another's witty reparte.

Juleestevens@earthli
April 8th, 2005, 06:35 PM
April 8th is Phil Schaap b'day....no big mention, no fundraiser. He works very hard for what he loves and believes in. It is not Billie Holidays day, it is Phil's and a bit of recogntion would be great. He is congruent in what he believes in. That is what life is about. J.

Chris A
April 8th, 2005, 07:13 PM
I have been listening to the station, including Phil's embarrassing self-indulgence for several days. Yesterday, he was blathering when I tuned in, and he went on for another 45 minutes, plugging "his" book and telling us how it will be the product of "definitive" research. Well, I have heard them give out misinformation several times in the past few days--so much for definitive research. If you listen, notice how Phil constantly refers to this future publication as "my book," seemingly forgetting his co-authors, who include the truly knowledgeable Ben Young. This is not about Billie as much as it is about exploiting Billie to keep his soap box.

Playing ever scrap he get his hands on (be advised that he does not haver it all, as claimed) is not really fair to the artist. Had Billie been alive to hear this exercise in excess, she would, I bet, have cringed.

Sorry, Clifton, I believe in free speech and telling it like it is. If describing what I heard on the radio is construed as an insult, blame the people behind the microphone. If you disagree with me, that's another matter. Frankly, I had thought of digging out the interview I did with Billie in 1959 and allowing the station to air it (years ago, I gave Phil my Lester Young interview for another program), but I learned my lesson when I lent material to Ken Burns, and I am now glad that I did.

orroonie
April 8th, 2005, 09:12 PM
April 8th is Phil Schaap b'day....no big mention, no fundraiser. He works very hard for what he loves and believes in. It is not Billie Holidays day, it is Phil's and a bit of recogntion would be great. He is congruent in what he believes in. That is what life is about. J.

Happy Birthday Phil. I hope your fundraiser gets WKCR the dues so you can continue your wonderful jazz radio show. You are needed to keep hipping everyone to the beautiful sounds of Jazz. Nobody has done it better then you.

Chris A
April 8th, 2005, 09:35 PM
Kinda infantile, don't you think, "oroonie"?

(he knows what I mean)

orroonie
April 8th, 2005, 09:44 PM
What does that mean????

Coolguy
April 9th, 2005, 06:55 AM
It sounds like an homage to Charles Yardbird Oroonie. Anything we can do to keep this great music, its best artists, and its traditions alive should be well appreciated by people--as Phil says--"whose religion is jazz." Amen to that.

orroonie
April 10th, 2005, 09:10 PM
Great article in todays Sunday Times on Phil Shapp and The fundraising drive at WKCR. The heading reads (Play Me Some Billy Holiday( for 360 Hours, to Be Exact). There is picture of the cover of a rare Billy with Stan Getz album. The article is almost half a page.


Pledges are coming in from all over the country and there have been contibutions by jazz artists like Charles Lloyd, Jimmy Heath and Roy Haynes.

emanuel ferritis
April 10th, 2005, 09:48 PM
Great article in todays Sunday Times on Phil Shapp and The fundraising drive at WKCR. The heading reads (Play Me Some Billy Holiday( for 360 Hours, to Be Exact). There is picture of the cover of a rare Billy with Stan Getz album. The article is almost half a page.


Pledges are coming in from all over the country and there have been contibutions by jazz artists like Charles Lloyd, Jimmy Heath and Roy Haynes.
Here's the article: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/10/nyregion/10billie.html?
It's a nice article. Not to split hairs, but this is the thread for it, Schaap is only mentioned in two paragraphs. I'm happy the word is getting out on WKCR.

orroonie
April 16th, 2005, 01:26 AM
Congratulations Phil and your wonderful staff for getting the funding you needed to keep WKCR alive and well.

Coolguy
April 16th, 2005, 07:05 AM
What he and his fellow broadcasters did was a beautful tribute to Lady Day, and what listerners did was a beautiful tribute to one-of-a-kind jazz programming. They (we) all saved a very valuable artistic forum from desecration by the mongoloid rockers and vulgar Howard Stern wannabees who infest most of the comnmercial bandwidths. Evil does not always triumph, even in this problematic land. I toast KCR with avocado seed soup.

emanuel ferritis
April 17th, 2005, 12:40 AM
What he and his fellow broadcasters did was a beautful tribute to Lady Day, and what listerners did was a beautiful tribute to one-of-a-kind jazz programming. They (we) all saved a very valuable artistic forum from desecration by the mongoloid rockers and vulgar Howard Stern wannabees who infest most of the comnmercial bandwidths. Evil does not always triumph, even in this problematic land. I toast KCR with avocado seed soup.
I dig on WKCR as much if not more than most, and I agree that they should be commended for their efforts for pulling off the Billie Holiday marathon. And the people that contributed to the fund-drive deserve a heapin’ helpin’ of praise. I’m also really glad to know I can rest easier knowing WKCR will be around for that much longer. But the cheap shots on Rock and Howard Stern, are just too cheap. For better or worse people really like to tune in to Rock & Roll, Howard Stern and his brand of radio. Though I don’t know the exact numbers, I’d venture a guess that somewhere between a very, very, very large amount and a very, very, large amount of people tune in nationwide. As cool as we all are for being here, we really are in the tiniest of minorities for liking and supporting Jazz.

Chris A
April 17th, 2005, 06:10 AM
I agree with Emanuel's last post. Ben Young and Ted Planken make the station listenable. Schaap is insufferable, IMO, and I think KCR would do well to phase him out and replace him with someone who places the music above his/her own ego.

I never liked Howard Stern and I am not into sports, but Phil's tirades against these program alternatives was totally uncalled for.

James
April 17th, 2005, 12:25 PM
What the Phil apologists dishonestly avoid looking at is the fact that jazz air time is a rare and prescious commodity. Time spent yammering on ad nauseum on facts that are (better) documented in books is time that can't be spent exposing listeners to new artists. Do they honestly believe that the jazz audience (new & veteran) is better served by a lengthy diatribe on Charlie Parker when a track from a provocative artist like David Binney, for example, could be exciting their ears? There is an alternate medium for Phil's banter. It's called a *book.* There is *no* substitute for jazz radio air time.

Yeah, yeah --- I know. Other dj's with less verbose styles have the opportunity to give exposure to these deserving artists. To this argument I still respond with a resounding BULLSHIT!!! Bassist Darek Oles may serve as an example. Listeners have heard him perform wonderfully as a sideman for years --- now he has a great new release out as a leader. Jazz listeners who have had the opportunity to hear his work (via dj's who have their priorities straight) will take greater interest in his new release by virtue of previous exposure --- which bumpkins like Phil will NEVER provide.

Any confusion...........refer back to sentence #1 in post.

James
April 17th, 2005, 12:36 PM
I toast KCR with avocado seed soup.

While you play your bongos in the dirt?

















[sorry -------- couldn't help myself. :) ]

SirStittsville
April 17th, 2005, 10:13 PM
Even though we had an older thread on similar subject matter, we have a lot of new members, so I think it's OK to let them comment here. Other than that, let's try to avoid being repititious or overly insulting.

I just started posting recently at AAJ. I love it here, but it seems that these insults are getting as bad as organissimo who I had checked out before I signed up here.

I picture this guy Chris sitting up, night and day, hoping the funding failed at wkcr, but as you know they made the goal they needed to stay on the air. I know Schapp didn't do it by himself, but he did a hell of a job putting it all together. I know now can I have bird every morning, and the other great programing... I've been listening for many years. Excuse me, but I'm just very upset right know.

Chris A
April 17th, 2005, 11:04 PM
I picture this guy Chris sitting up, night and day, hoping the funding failed at wkcr


Sorry to disappoint you, but this guy, Chris, is delighted to see WKCR succeed in spite of Schaap's obnoxious diatripes. As I said before, the station makes a lot of sense when Ben Young and Ted Planken are at the console and the focus is on the music.

Lee Gato
April 18th, 2005, 01:45 PM
I find a stance against any extended exposition whatsoever in jazz radio to be dogmatic and unreasonable.

James
April 18th, 2005, 07:39 PM
I find a stance against any extended exposition whatsoever in jazz radio to be dogmatic and unreasonable.

I can certainly appreciate that. What I'm opposed to is *constant* lengthy banter which results in extremely short playlists each and every time a particular dj is on the air. I enjoy smart commentary and anecdotes from a knowledgeable and reverential dj who has personal experience with the musicians he's talking about, and keeps the music in the spotlight. I think most listeners who've been following this music for a while can quickly detect when a dj is stepping into that spotlight.

orroonie
April 25th, 2005, 11:25 AM
Kinda infantile, don't you think, "oroonie"?

(he knows what I mean)


TO THE MODERATOR

I have just been notified by Clave, that my post to him has to be edited out on the Symphony Sid thread. how come this post was not edited out. When I responded to it and asked what does that mean, he never answered. Can you please explain that to me? I think think this is unfair, don't you.

Frank Mullen
April 25th, 2005, 02:47 PM
I know that this will inflame some of you, but I rather like Schaap, and have always appreciated listening to his program(s). :confused:

Chris A
April 25th, 2005, 02:56 PM
That shouldn't inflame anyone, Frank--different strokes, and all that ... :D

Frank Mullen
April 25th, 2005, 03:02 PM
I agreee, but some folks around here seem to get mighty inflamed about him. Ought to try political thread to work off their vexation.

James
April 26th, 2005, 12:01 PM
That shouldn't inflame anyone, Frank--different strokes, and all that ... :D

It would take a very small mind to get inflamed by someone else's enjoyment of a person/object/art that they themselves were unenthused/vexed by.
I just think of all of the worthy (living!) artists that should be getting exposure while the guy babbles and I'm saddened. I've been accused of being way too serious about things, but on the subject of jazz there are issues where I just don't have any ground to give.

Uhuru
May 16th, 2005, 03:57 PM
Sure, he does babble a lot but it never ceases to amaze me the depth of detail he knows. I have never met him in person so for all I know some of the comments made by others may be right, that he's insufferable in person. I do think he should write a book (which he apparently has not, from my searching of internet book sites) given his depth of interest and knowledge in the subject of jazz. However, I thought the criticism by some of the recent Billie Holiday extravaganza were totally unjustified. As soon as he reached the station's goal amount for pledges he played a LOT of music, and although he did comment fairly often it was interspersed with a lot of cuts of Billie. And, I enjoyed some of the kind of "outtakes" and casual recordings of her and other artists just kind of hanging out. I thought it was a fascinating insight into the recording process and into her relationships with the others. I was just wishing they still had the Billie Holiday special going - it was great to tune in every day to and from work and listen to Billie. Three cheers to Phil and the others for putting it together!

jalcjazzman
June 3rd, 2005, 02:26 PM
Wow... I didnt realize there was so much controversy over Phil. There is a lotto be said about this guy and his contributions to the music. I have also notice that musicians have a hard dealing with living jazz musicians who use their personality just as much or more than their music abilty. Jazz is often just as much a lifestyle as it is an artform. I work with Schaap almost everyday and we hold many musical discussions a week. Trust me this man is not just the product of a photographic memory. He is someone who truly loves the music. He doesnt simply remember dates because he wants to show you how much he knows. He finds dates as important in jazz as dates are to U.S. History. Most jazz has historical context in the music and he understands this. Most of his knowledge he obtained from growing up in a household where jazz was constantly fed to him. Roy Haynes was his babysitter, his father would place him in jazz environments, and this nurtured his love. I have had many jazz teachers such as James Spaudling, Jothan Callins (a pioneer for strata-east and arranger for sun ra), Cleve Eaton, consuala lee, steve ellington, james moody, jimmy heath, rahn burton, frank adams (joined dukes band in 51 at age 17) and tons more. They all tell me when i study jazz history to study with him. So i have been. They all see his merit and i understand how "jazz enthusiast" cant see it. When i first met him, i was slightly intemidated by the amount of knowledge that he can store. He was giving me catalog numbers from albums and I am thinking "what the hell?" Come to find out he remastered a lot of albums we consider precious. He goes to warehouses, basements, and through trash trying to hunt down as much music that hasnt been released ever. He has copied some things for me from the original assitates so i can experience the music. He found two seperatly recorded versions of the Duke Ellington Newport Jazz festival concert and combined them to make stereo. The man is not simply at walking encyclopedia, he is a passionate jazz lover. He has owned and ran jazz clubs around the city not because he was looking for fame but because he loves the life. I think that is what most jazz musicians are missing today. There is a lifestyle that comes with the music and acceptance of the history and culture behind it. You cant except the music and not take in the culture and be successful. Yes Schaap has rubbed off on me. Everyday he gives me literature about artists and their recordings because if we dont remember how these things unfolded jazz will start to run in place. He knows a lot as well because he reads a tremendous amount. He doesnt simply read one book but he reads tons and analyzes. i challenge musicians to do the same. i work at jazz at lincoln and i didnt get the job because i can simply play. I study the music and because of that at 19 I am the youngest employee here. luckily i have tons of things accessible and i try my best to take advantage of that. Phil is one of those things that i have access to. And I plan to soak up his brain and it will come through my playing and lifestyle. Phil is a friend and a personal hero of mine.

Coolguy
June 3rd, 2005, 08:33 PM
Let us note the passing of Walter Schaap, Phil's dad, who died on May 29. If there is such a thing as a "Jazz gene," it was definitely transmitted by DNA from father to son. Wally was an 87-year-old World War II vet who was co-editor of the 1948 discography that became a standard jazz reference, and for years he translated the Hot Club of France magazine into English. As he said in a 80th birthday interview with his son that was rebroadcast his before his funeral on June 1, the elder Schaap came down on the side of the "moldy figs" such as Sidney Bechet in the famous "Battle of the Bands" with the be-boppers. But hey--what kid every agrees with all of his parents' musical taste?
I never met the elder Schaap and could not attend his funeral at St. Peter's Church in NYC (the "Jazz Church") but I heard it ran 2 1/2 hours and the music was outstanding. It ended with the Jewish prayer for mourning,followed by "Didn't He Ramble." Perfect.
Here's to you, Wally. You were cool.

Chris A
June 3rd, 2005, 10:26 PM
Let us note the passing of Walter Schaap, Phil's dad, who died on May 29. If there is such a thing as a "Jazz gene," it was definitely transmitted by DNA from father to son.

Phil was adopted.

kenny weir
June 3rd, 2005, 11:09 PM
Phil was adopted.
:lol:

louisx123
June 8th, 2005, 09:17 AM
Phil was my musical education when I was in college. He booked the West End bar across from Columbia University and me and my friends got to see, and sometimes meet, the likes of Tiny Grimes, Paul Quinichette, Jo Jones, Panama Francis, Eddie Durham, and many other great musicians whose importance Phil drilled into us even though we only began to appreciate it years later. Yes, sometimes his mouth was at my ear a bit too long explaining something about a riff or a small historical event while I was trying to listen to the music, but surprisingly that is what sticks fondly in my mind over 20 years later. The world needs more more enthusiastic, knowledgeable people like him. Sorry to hear about his father.

tpt1
June 8th, 2005, 03:33 PM
:lol: Somehow, I get the feeling he was being serious.

Chris A
June 8th, 2005, 05:13 PM
It was not meant to be funny, just to set the facts straight and puncture yet another assumption.

clifton
June 17th, 2005, 07:28 AM
I knew Wally Schaap personally, but hadn't seen him in years and didn't know he died. He was a really nice guy, and he at least developed a tolerance for bebop, if not a real love for it.

mlewis78
June 19th, 2005, 05:08 PM
I just found this forum after I did a google search for Phil Schaap.

I also did not know that so many people -- perhaps mainly on this forum -- would diss Phil Schaap.

He truly is a national treasure, as are his radio shows. I first learned about his radio program "Traditions in Swing" from my brother. My brother lived in the south and before he got a computer could not listen to WKCR unless he was visiting us, so I taped Traditions in Swing for him. Then I started dubbing the tapes so that I would have a copy of my own. I am a classical musician and only know what I do about jazz through Phil Schaap and my brother. Now I have a pretty good collection of Louis Armstrong, Duke Ellington, Benny Goodman, Lester Young and other big band/swing great recordings.

My brother had quite a collection that he amassed over the past 50 years. He just passed away on May 30th, 2005 (two days after Walter Schaap). One of my other brothers is, as I write this, is transporting the collection in a truck from Kentucky to New Jersey.

I'm sorry that so many of you would put down Phil Schaap publicly like this, and it makes me sad to read your posts that are negative. I don't see him as egotistical at all. I don't know him personally, but I love his radio programs and as far as I'm concerned he can "blather" on. If you only want to hear the music, play your recordings! You could tape his show and skip the talk parts when you listen.

I would like to express my condolences to Phil Schaap for the loss of his father. However, after reading posts here, I doubt that he would be reading this.

SirStittsville
June 19th, 2005, 08:30 PM
I just found this forum after I did a google search for Phil Schaap.

I also did not know that so many people -- perhaps mainly on this forum -- would diss Phil Schaap.

He truly is a national treasure, as are his radio shows. I first learned about his radio program "Traditions in Swing" from my brother. My brother lived in the south and before he got a computer could not listen to WKCR unless he was visiting us, so I taped Traditions in Swing for him. Then I started dubbing the tapes so that I would have a copy of my own. I am a classical musician and only know what I do about jazz through Phil Schaap and my brother. Now I have a pretty good collection of Louis Armstrong, Duke Ellington, Benny Goodman, Lester Young and other big band/swing great recordings.

My brother had quite a collection that he amassed over the past 50 years. He just passed away on May 30th, 2005 (two days after Walter Schaap). One of my other brothers is, as I write this, is transporting the collection in a truck from Kentucky to New Jersey.

I'm sorry that so many of you would put down Phil Schaap publicly like this, and it makes me sad to read your posts that are negative. I don't see him as egotistical at all. I don't know him personally, but I love his radio programs and as far as I'm concerned he can "blather" on. If you only want to hear the music, play your recordings! You could tape his show and skip the talk parts when you listen.


I would like to express my condolences to Phil Schaap for the loss of his father. However, after reading posts here, I doubt that he would be reading this.

I am fairly new to the forum and I can tell you that we have the best jazz forum there is. Please don't judge us by some posters who dissed Phil Shaap so badly. The majority of us are kind jazz loving people. I hope if Phil sees this thread he will understand this.

Marcello
June 19th, 2005, 10:13 PM
I think most can regard Schaap straight down the middle; not a complete jerk and egoist ( or egotist for that matter ) and not a jazz savior either.

Having said that, in this music, there is a lot of missinformation and outright lies. If and when Schaap has a hand in that, it's very serious to the people who try to care for and protect this music.

I can only take him in small doses, myself.

Not the music he selects; just him.

mlewis78
June 19th, 2005, 10:14 PM
Thanks, Sir. I'll explore some of the other threads here.

gabegabrielsky
June 19th, 2005, 10:27 PM
Having said that, in this music, there is a lot of missinformation and outright lies. If and when Schaap has a hand in that, it's very serious to the people who try to care for and protect this music.


Frankly that's a state of mind I simply don't get. Half the fun of the culture of jazz is the mythology that surrounds it. I think the efforts of "scholars" in the humanities and social sciences to find objective reality is a fool's errand. As evidence I would suggest reading and comparing nearly anything written about jazz in the 1950s when the field was dominated by nonacademic types who happened to be very good writers (Lenard Feather, Nat Hentoff, Ralph Gleason, Ralph Berton, etc. Also Marshall Stearns, who happened to be an academic, but that's not how he approached jazz) with the work of academics in the field today which is about the most arid stuff I've run across, a fetishistic search for facts at the sacrifice of truth.

Marcello
June 19th, 2005, 10:32 PM
Gabe, I'm not refering to bad writers just bad reporters!

James
June 20th, 2005, 02:16 AM
I am fairly new to the forum and I can tell you that we have the best jazz forum there is. Please don't judge us by some posters who dissed Phil Shaap so badly. The majority of us are kind jazz loving people.

So ........ let's see if I have this straight. If anyone has an opinion regarding the role of a jazz dj which runs counter to yours, that person is automatically an *unkind jazz hating* person? Your logic, sir, is severely flawed to say the least.

Frank Mullen
June 20th, 2005, 08:26 AM
I agree that I've always appreciated him and his dedication to presenting both his Coltrane programs and his birthday specials and just his everyday jazz programs. Where else can you purists find so much air time devoted to jazz?

James
June 20th, 2005, 04:17 PM
Where else can you purists find so much air time devoted to jazz?

Well, Frank, since you asked [ :p ]........................

..................from any number of knowledgeable, dedicated jazz dj's who understand the following principles:

A jazz dj can talk to his audience until he's blue in the face about the merits of a particular artist/artists. The musical-technical reasons for his/her brilliance, the reasons for his/her importance in the developement of the music, etc. etc. etc. Ultimately, regardless of academic issues, the listener will gravitate in the direction of jazz that they actually *hear with their own ears* and enjoy. This cause is best served through lots of exposure to a wide variety of jazz styles. A musical picture is worth a thousand words. Those who place gab before providing real exposure to recordings ignore this fact, and the fact [as I've said before] that there is an alternate medium for presenting information -- namely books and magazines; while there is NO alternative medium for radio nearly as effective for presenting the music. [well, T.V. perhaps!] Much has been made regarding Phil's role as a jazz educator. Exposing listeners to the *actual music* is an extremely important part of jazz education, and verbose dj's fail miserably in this department by virtue of their consistently shorter playlists. This is a point that defenders of "talkative" jocks conveniently avoid addressing.

One of the reasons L.A. jazz dj Chuck Niles was rightly revered was the fact that he understood the importance of supporting live jazz. Lengthy diatribes would have not only cut into his playlist, but would have also diminished the time he had to talk about the gigs in town. Still, he was able to work in charming personal anecdotes regarding his personal experiences with the music/musicians. Is the jazz cause better served when a jock blabbers on at length on discographical [and other] minutia, or when the listenership is informed regarding the live jazz scene? That's a no-brainer for most jazz dj's. Phil's style is the minority style for a reason(s). There are only so many prescious minutes in a jazz radio program, and they deserve to be spent wisely.

All of this being said, it's obvious that Phil has inspired some fans (veteran & new) to a greater dedication to the music -- and that obviously supports the jazz cause to an extent. I should point out that comments I've made are not personal. I simply have a problem with ALL dj's who's style is accurately described as verbose. Based on *years* of taking unsolicited feedback from fans on the subject of jazz radio [I did a show for seventeen years] I can say that the majority of listeners are turned off by extended talk. Regardless of how staunch your friends are, if you've turned off the majority you have lost the war. My advice to Phil and jocks like him would be to direct their passion for sharing jazz information to the print media -- which would free up time on their programs for talk about the live jazz scene, and presenting the actual music. I suspect that this advice would fall on deaf ears, but what the hell - ya gotta give it a shot. :wink2:

jalcjazzman
June 21st, 2005, 12:55 PM
phil has done tons of print info for books such as lionel hamtpons autobio to album notes in which he won numerous grammy awards. He does way more print than radio but to be honest a lot of jazz enthusiasts are simply concerned with sound of things and not why it sounds that way and the significance of it. true enough alot of the music is subjective but its so important to understand that listening to phil is like listening to a professor and biased are automatically included in the package of this national treasure. Phil knows what he knows because he has just as much love as all of us but he takes/took the time to talk the cats and read the books. And not just some of the books. ALL of them. I was talking to him and asking him about reading material and he gave me a list of about 20 recommended books on duke ellington and after I read two I asked him what did he suggest I read next. He told me to read the other 18 as well and then come and ask. He reads all the books and they often contradict each other but its just like all history, the reader has to decide for themselves what they want to believe. He's done a damn good job at doing this.

Chris A
June 21st, 2005, 02:38 PM
phil has done tons of print info for books such as lionel hamtpons autobio to album notes in which he won numerous grammy awards. He does way more print than radio but to be honest a lot of jazz enthusiasts are simply concerned with sound of things and not why it sounds that way and the significance of it. true enough alot of the music is subjective but its so important to understand that listening to phil is like listening to a professor and biased are automatically included in the package of this national treasure. Phil knows what he knows because he has just as much love as all of us but he takes/took the time to talk the cats and read the books. And not just some of the books. ALL of them. I was talking to him and asking him about reading material and he gave me a list of about 20 recommended books on duke ellington and after I read two I asked him what did he suggest I read next. He told me to read the other 18 as well and then come and ask. He reads all the books and they often contradict each other but its just like all history, the reader has to decide for themselves what they want to believe. He's done a damn good job at doing this.

That's all good and well. Many of us read a lot of book and I can't think of anyone who would hesitate to recommend some. Phil's problem is that he makes stuff up, whether it's on the air or in writing. His liner notes a rife with his fantasies--if you're okay with that, I guess you really aren't looking for factual history.

Phil has obviously convinced a great number of his listeners that he knows what he is talking about, but jazz historians and scholars know how mmany of his "facts" are stories of his own making. I am sure that he, himself, knows when he's telling a story. We all look at facts and--when they are vague--draw conclusion, but we don't pass our theories off as the real thing. That's where Phil really loses the respect of the jazz journalist/historian community.

Talk to George Avakian about all the stories Phil has made up regarding his (Avakian's) recording sessions--was Phil there? No, but George was. Ask Phil why he tried to have George ousted from his father's memorial service recently (he didn't have the courage himself to ask that George leave, so he sent a couple of his friend--twice). George had know and been a close friend and colleague of Walter Schaap for some sixty years! I am happy to say that he did not heed Phil's wishes and leave.

As for Grammy awards, don't be fooled by them. I have a couple of those and they don't mean a thing. It's all political and Columbia Records/Sony has a lot of power. My Grammy's, too, were related to work I did for Columbia.

Unsolicited advice: Believe what you will, but explore on your own--don't be taken in.

jalcjazzman
June 23rd, 2005, 11:52 AM
That's all good and well. Many of us read a lot of book and I can't think of anyone who would hesitate to recommend some. Phil's problem is that he makes stuff up, whether it's on the air or in writing. His liner notes a rife with his fantasies--if you're okay with that, I guess you really aren't looking for factual history.

Phil has obviously convinced a great number of his listeners that he knows what he is talking about, but jazz historians and scholars know how mmany of his "facts" are stories of his own making. I am sure that he, himself, knows when he's telling a story. We all look at facts and--when they are vague--draw conclusion, but we don't pass our theories off as the real thing. That's where Phil really loses the respect of the jazz journalist/historian community.

Talk to George Avakian about all the stories Phil has made up regarding his (Avakian's) recording sessions--was Phil there? No, but George was. Ask Phil why he tried to have George ousted from his father's memorial service recently (he didn't have the courage himself to ask that George leave, so he sent a couple of his friend--twice). George had know and been a close friend and colleague of Walter Schaap for some sixty years! I am happy to say that he did not heed Phil's wishes and leave.

As for Grammy awards, don't be fooled by them. I have a couple of those and they don't mean a thing. It's all political and Columbia Records/Sony has a lot of power. My Grammy's, too, were related to work I did for Columbia.

Unsolicited advice: Believe what you will, but explore on your own--don't be taken in.

Okay, I think I am understanding what you are saying much clearer now. I believe you are saying that you believe that people thinks Phil's words and teachings are as good as gold. I can understand that. Yes, Phil does have quite a bit of theories and assumptions that he has drawn over the years. As a historian I do thing is an important asset to the jazz community just like Roger Mugge or James West Davidson is to American history. They assess things and come up to possible causes and answers to questions that are not answered. I agree with you that one can confuse the theories with facts, but for me he has always made it clear for me whenever he starts talking about his personal assesments of what could have happened. As far as his relationship with George Avakian I am not very familar with their relationship, but something tells me that probably goes deep into personal conflicts between the two. Even if Phil was wrong and possibly presented his personal opinions as facts it is very hard to question his overall merit as a jazz historian and figure. But then again, I may be different than some because as an enthusiastic teenager I dont Phil's or any singular person's word as golden. I prefer to do the research myself and for the most part I have found that most resources are consistant with Phil. But Chris A I would love to read some of your writings just as an enthusiast.

Chris A
June 23rd, 2005, 01:39 PM
Thank you for your response, jacjm. If it can give you a better idea of where I am coming from in regards to Phil, I hope you do read some of my writing, preferably not older work. I've been at it for over 50 years and there is work I wouldn't mind seeing disappear forever. :)

Bessie, my biography of Bessie Smith might give you an idea of my research and approach, even if she may represent an idiom and era that you are less interested in.

Coolguy
June 23rd, 2005, 09:54 PM
First of all, I dug the Bessie Smith book--a lot. Thanks, Chris.

I confess to being a frequent Schaap listener, and when I started one of the Schaap threads here, I never expected so much pro and con debate. That's cool. But what bothers me is Chris's assertion that Phil just makes shit up. That's very uncool. I guess I'll view Phil's stories with a bit more skepticism from now on, but I would still argue that he has done a lot of valuable scholarship and service on behalf of the jazz community--notably in his on-air debriefings of some of the most important folks who were present at the creations.
I also recogize that there can be a lot of jealousy in any professional field, and sometimes that leaves laypeople like me unsure of just what and whom to believe.

So maybe we should give Brother Phil the last word here.

PHIL, WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO SAY ABOUT ALL THIS ONLINE JIVE TALK?
If you're listening, give us a shout.

SirStittsville
June 23rd, 2005, 10:29 PM
Thank you for your response, jacjm. If it can give you a better idea of where I am coming from in regards to Phil, I hope you do read some of my writing, preferably not older work. I've been at it for over 50 years and there is work I wouldn't mind seeing disappear forever. :)

Bessie, my biography of Bessie Smith might give you an idea of my research and approach, even if she may represent an idiom and era that you are less interested in.

I have found Phil's resources to be very good. I've checked them out. I also would really appreciate reading some of your PRESENT writings on jazz.... Any books or published articles would be fine. I am familiar with your Bessie Smith biography.

Marcello
June 23rd, 2005, 11:00 PM
Maybe you should do a little research yourself, in the meantime.

Start with these links:

Recent Interview (http://home.nestor.minsk.by/jazz/articles/2005/04/0024.html)

And:
Biography (http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/encyclopedia/C/Ch/Chris_Albertson.htm)

Chris A
June 23rd, 2005, 11:10 PM
I have found Phil's resources to be very good. I've checked them out. I also would really appreciate reading some of your PRESENT writings on jazz.... Any books or published articles would be fine. I am familiar with your Bessie Smith biography.

If you want something more recent than my Bessie Smith biography, which is out in a new, revised and considerably expanded edition, you might try the booklet to Mosaic's new Basie set (The Clef/Verve Studio Sessions).

SirStittsville
June 23rd, 2005, 11:17 PM
I am fairly new to the forum and I can tell you that we have the best jazz forum there is. Please don't judge us by some posters who dissed Phil Shaap so badly. The majority of us are kind jazz loving people. So ........ let's see if I have this straight. If anyone has an opinion regarding the role of a jazz dj which runs counter to yours, that person is automatically an *unkind jazz hating* person? Your logic, sir, is severely flawed to say the least.

First off, that is not what I said (do not twist my words). Anyways, it was mostly sent to a mister Chris A, who made this remark:



Let us note the passing of Walter Schaap, Phil's dad, who died on May 29. If there is such a thing as a "Jazz gene," it was definitely transmitted by DNA from father to son. Phil was adopted.

...now, even if there was a topic regarding someone that I disliked or even hated, I would never make such a remark. If I was expressing my opinion about someone I didn't like, I would indeed speak badly of their work. But i would never attack their family like that, it was rude and uncalled for...thats my thought.

Chris A
June 23rd, 2005, 11:45 PM
If I was expressing my opinion to people I would indeed speak badly of their work. But i would never attack their family like that, it was rude and uncalled for...thats my thought.

Did anyone attack any else family here? If so, I must have missed it. "Coolguy" theorized that genes were at work and so I responded with a fact that disproves that assumption. That should not be construed as an "attack" on anyone's family, unless you regard adoption as something shameful that should be hidden. For your sake, I hope that's not the case.

BTW, have we not belabored this ad nauseum by now?

SirStittsville
June 24th, 2005, 09:08 PM
"Coolguy" theorized that genes were at work and so I responded with a fact that disproves that assumption. That should not be construed as an "attack" on anyone's family, unless you regard adoption as something shameful that should be hidden. For your sake, I hope that's not the case.

BTW, have we not belabored this ad nauseum by now?

All "Coolguy" was trying to do is make a nice little eulogy-type post to make a note of his fathers passing. If he ("Coolguy" or anyone else) was giving a speach at Walter's funeral and said "If there is such a thing as a "Jazz gene," it was definitely transmitted by DNA from father to son.", would you stand up a say "Oh, it's not possible because 'Phil was adopted'", would you?; I would hope not. It was a very unkind thing to say...

And give us some credit on this board. This nauseum is you.

Coolguy
June 24th, 2005, 11:16 PM
I loved your "Bessie" book, but I've got to agree with Sir. Your adoption remark was an unkind putdown. It hurt me when I read it. Whetever hostility you have toward Phil--and I have a sense it goes back years--you seem to have felt the necessity to tell me I was wrong in a literal sense for what was clearly intended as a compliment to both a very hip father and his grieving son.
I happened to be listening to "Bird Flight" on the morning of Wally Schaap's funeral. It was a rebroadcast of a lentghy interview of father by son. The two of them shared so much love and friendly discussion/argumemt over trad. vs bebop that it hardly mattered whether they had a biological connection. They really didn't need it.

And thanks, Sir. I hadn't wanted to reply to Chris' adoption remark. But you helped me realize he missed the point.

Guys, there is so much negativity in the world that we have no control over. Let's use this space to celebrate our mutual love for this wonderful music and those who create it, not trash one another over petty sour notes.

SirStittsville
June 25th, 2005, 02:06 AM
I loved your "Bessie" book, but I've got to agree with Sir. Your adoption remark was an unkind putdown. It hurt me when I read it. Whetever hostility you have toward Phil--and I have a sense it goes back years--you seem to have felt the necessity to tell me I was wrong in a literal sense for what was clearly intended as a compliment to both a very hip father and his grieving son.
I happened to be listening to "Bird Flight" on the morning of Wally Schaap's funeral. It was a rebroadcast of a lentghy interview of father by son. The two of them shared so much love and friendly discussion/argumemt over trad. vs bebop that it hardly mattered whether they had a biological connection. They really didn't need it.

And thanks, Sir. I hadn't wanted to reply to Chris' adoption remark. But you helped me realize he missed the point.

Guys, there is so much negativity in the world that we have no control over. Let's use this space to celebrate our mutual love for this wonderful music and those who create it, not trash one another over petty sour notes.


'nuff said... :o

Coolguy
June 30th, 2005, 08:24 PM
I have it on excellent authority from a close member of Phil's family that he most definitely was NOT adopted. Sorry, Chris. DNA rules!

emanuel ferritis
June 30th, 2005, 10:29 PM
I have it on excellent authority from a close member of Phil's family that he most definitely was NOT adopted. Sorry, Chris. DNA rules!
You really asked a close member of Phil’s family if he was adopted? Am I the only one that finds this funny :laugh: ? First I want to clarify that I dig on all the parties here: Phil Schaap, Chris, you. But Chris makes a grumpy off-hand remark and it gets all the way to clarifying with family. You really thought Chris was serious :laugh: ? What was this conversation like?
“So this AAJ site really swings, I can’t get enough.”
“I dig it too. The things they talk about... And with such knowledge and sincerity.”
“I understand why it named Best Jazz Web Site recently.”
“Me too.”
“Say, you’re a close relative of Phil Schaap’s right?”
“Yeah.”
“Well, there’s a thread where all they talk about is your close relative”
“Groovy.”
“Someone wanted to know if Phil is adopted. Is that true?”
“No, Phil wasn’t adopted. Someone really asked that? And they weren’t putting you on? Oh well. Have a good Fourth. Bird lives”
“Bird lives.”
Am I close? I’m sorry, there’s no animosity here on my part, and if it appears that way, I apologize in advance. The whole thing just makes me laugh :laugh: . Peace.
Emanuel

jalcjazzman
July 5th, 2005, 12:07 PM
You really asked a close member of Phil’s family if he was adopted? Am I the only one that finds this funny :laugh: ? First I want to clarify that I dig on all the parties here: Phil Schaap, Chris, you. But Chris makes a grumpy off-hand remark and it gets all the way to clarifying with family. You really thought Chris was serious :laugh: ? What was this conversation like?
“So this AAJ site really swings, I can’t get enough.”
“I dig it too. The things they talk about... And with such knowledge and sincerity.”
“I understand why it named Best Jazz Web Site recently.”
“Me too.”
“Say, you’re a close relative of Phil Schaap’s right?”
“Yeah.”
“Well, there’s a thread where all they talk about is your close relative”
“Groovy.”
“Someone wanted to know if Phil is adopted. Is that true?”
“No, Phil wasn’t adopted. Someone really asked that? And they weren’t putting you on? Oh well. Have a good Fourth. Bird lives”
“Bird lives.”
Am I close? I’m sorry, there’s no animosity here on my part, and if it appears that way, I apologize in advance. The whole thing just makes me laugh :laugh: . Peace.
Emanuel

I think Chris was serious, there was some animosity from him.

jglance
July 5th, 2005, 03:53 PM
I'm in Washington, DC and tune in on the internet every weekday morning to hear Bird Flight. So Phil Schaap's commentaries certainly don't bother me. Far from it. I also appreciate that he plays rare material, that he favors superior sound over convenience when selecting an audio source, and that he has conducted hundreds of hours of historically important interviews with major jazz figures (I find his interviews much more significant than those in the Felix Grant archives at UDC, by the way) and continues to make them available to listeners.
So it bothered me to read the personal attacks on him that I have read here. I thought the political discourse in Washington had gotten nasty, but you've got some real venom on this list. I would like to ask, for the edification of all reading, that if a respected scholar like Chris maintains that Phil gave incorrect factual information, can we at least know what facts he is alleged to have misstated? So that the record is set straight, at minimum.

Coolguy
July 5th, 2005, 06:24 PM
You really asked a close member of Phil’s family if he was adopted? Am I the only one that finds this funny

Yeah, the guy is a co-worker and a friend who happens to be Phil's relative.
He and I both listen to "Bird Flight" on the way to work and sometimes compare notes.
When I mentioned Chris's adoption allegation, he didn't laugh. He got a little pissed off and said it wasn't true.

Am I close? I’m sorry, there’s no animosity here on my part, and if it appears that way, I apologize in advance.

No apology necessary.

SirStittsville
July 5th, 2005, 08:15 PM
You really asked a close member of Phil’s family if he was adopted? Am I the only one that finds this funny

Yeah, the guy is a co-worker and a friend who happens to be Phil's relative.
He and I both listen to "Bird Flight" on the way to work and sometimes compare notes.
When I mentioned Chris's adoption allegation, he didn't laugh. He got a little pissed off and said it wasn't true.

Am I close? I’m sorry, there’s no animosity here on my part, and if it appears that way, I apologize in advance.

No apology necessary.
If Chris's adoption allegation is false, then I believe that Chris should apologize to us on this message board and more importantly, to Phil. There is nothing funny about this at all.

kenny weir
July 5th, 2005, 08:26 PM
Funy? Maybe, maybe not. But I do know this: It is as boring as all get out. Maybe one of the adminsitrators will close it.

emanuel ferritis
July 5th, 2005, 08:35 PM
If Chris's adoption allegation is false, then I believe that Chris should apologize to us on this message board and more importantly, to Phil. There is nothing funny about this at all.
I do not pretend to speak for Chris, but his original statement seemed nothing more than grumpy and curmudgeonly. His many other enjoyable posts on many other topics and threads, this one included, follow this similar theme. Should he apologize? IMHO, he should have to apologize no more than any who make pottentially derogatory remarks in regards to artists, posters or sheep.
Funny? I still think it is funny. But funny, ah, tis a matter of taste no?
I dig on everyone here. Since my point is made, I shall refrane from posting on this thread for a little while, otherwise it's :deadhorse
Peace.

lady musemusic
February 6th, 2008, 06:33 PM
Phil seems a very talented unique inimitable force
endowed w/ considerable intellectual/creative/verbal prowess,& I sense a rather large heart +is 'in the know' unlike most...+ then some!

the special beauty about Mr Schaap particularly + his legacy I believe will live in his never ending dedication to educate + edify w/ such regard for jazz history in the best possible sense= nothing less than moving..for he,himself has so clearly been 'moved' by all the greats..it's quite inspirational! Plus, I've recently seen him dance + Yes, he can!

Jack
February 7th, 2008, 01:48 PM
Chris A.,
I don't know, nor have I ever asked Phil, about his family status. No, it's not an insult to have been adopted, if one has been adopted, but certainly it is the hight of rudness to discuss such aspects of someone else's life on a public forum. It is especially rude to post such a comment and not provide any reference which would verify the assertion, but it should not have been brought up in the first place.

Your other assertion concerning the veracity of any of Phil's comments is equally without any reference sources that might support that claim.

I have on rare occasion heard others make critical remarks concerning Phil's lengthy commentary during his broadcasts. On the other hand, I have on a great many occasions heard people reflect on his contributions and commitment to jazz, in particular, and music in general. Your unsupported gripes sound like just so much sour grapes. The fact that you chose to be rude in the making of those remarks brings into question your on character.

Phil Schapp's broadcasts are among the few that are dedicated to the continuation of jazz music. His collection of recorded sessions is unparalleled.
His breath of knowledge about the history of jazz in astounding. He was fortunate to have been blessed with what is commonly thought of as a photographic memory. He knows sports data just as well. Does he fill his broadcasts with a ton of information? Yes, he does. Is that information trivial? Only if you're not interested in such facts. There is no other place on the dial that provides the entertainment value and intellectual satisfaction
in regards to jazz that is provided by WKCR-FM and Phil Schapp, in particular.