Hybrid Integrated Amplifier

[Sonnyhill]

I'm thinking about taking the plunge into audiophile equipment. With respect to amplifiers I've been considering two amps--
The safe choice: NAD c370; and the riskier choice: Jolida 1501 hybrid (solid state and tube) integrated amp (www.jolida.com (http://www.jolida.com) ). I've read great reviews about the Jolida as the best of both worlds.

I know the NAD is a decent amp, but I would like your thoughts on the Jolida or tube amps in general. I am concerned about the common complaint that tube amps lack bass.

Of course I will be listening to jazz music mostly.

[sideshowbob]

hi Sonny

Make sure you listen to them both before buying. Tube amps can do great bass, just as transistor amps can. Haven't heard the Jolida but I know plenty of people rate them, and they have a good reputation for the price.

Tubes can do beguiling things, and they usually sound superb with acoustic music of all kinds. A tubed preamp stage and solid stage output stage is many people's idea of heaven. But only your ears can decide.

I used NAD gear for years (I now use a mixture of solid state stuff, with a tubed phono stage for the turntable). It's good stuff on the whole, but doesn't have the midrange transparency that good tube gear (and considerably more expensive solid state gear) can bring.

-- Ian

[Lonson]

I'll suggest that you look at the pages on tube amplifiers, etc. at
www.decware.com

I have been using the amps built by Steve Deckert on these pages for over five years and I am so satisfied that I don't hunger for any other amplifer at all, I've since been upgrading source and speakers. (Speaker selection is very important with these amps, but there are many options; I am using his Radial RL-2s. The audio forums at this site are very helpful as well in this and other regards.)

These are well-built, affordable, and so transparent and musical! I've never heard anything like them that didn't cost 4 to 6 thousand dollars.

[Sonnyhill]

Thanks for your responses.

What about maintenance of the tube amps? From what I have read, the tubes need to be changed occasionally. How often do they need to be replaced, and is the replacement of tubes something that the owner can do or does the amp have to be taken to a shop to have the tubes replaced?

Also, I've been reading that different brands of tubes have an influence on the sound of the amp, and that the amp can be "tuned" by its owner by way of tube selection. Could anyone explain the significance of the type of tube used on the sound that's produced by the amp?

Thanks.

[sideshowbob]

hi Sonny

Tubes in the preamp section of a hybrid should last at least 3 years, and probably much longer.

They're easy to replace, just like changing a lightbulb really. You don't need a dealer to do it, and their are plenty of places to buy tubes online.

You're right, different tubes do sound different, which means you can experiment to get a sound you like.

I'm no expert on different tube types, but check out this thread (scroll down a bit until you get to the links provided by lilolee and SCIDB):

http://www.groovehandle.org/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=653

I've recently replaced the tubes in my phono stage, and these posts were really useful.

-- Ian

[LeMo]

Sonnyhill,

I used tube for more than ten years now.

I own two very old (build in the fifties) mono block as amplification.

The life of a tube depend on many thing.

Principally on the kind of tubes you use, how many hours by day you are listening to music and what is the power of your amp.

If it's a amp using triodes (330 B, 850 etc.) with a push-pull and not very powered (from two to twelve watts by channel) and than you only listen few hours every week, you can keep it three to five years.

If you listen at least three hours a day, every days of the week, you will be oblige to change them about a years and a half. And the triode tubes are very expensive to change.

If you are using pentodes (El 34, El 84, KT 88 - but I think they are named differently in USA) with a push pull not very powered (twelve to eighteen watts by channel) and listen time to time to music (four five hours a week), you can keep them like ten years.

But if you listen every day and few hours a day you must change them, at least every two years.
If the amp his more powered (some may push those types of pentodes to forty to seventy watt by chanel) you will, maybe, will be oblige to change every year.

But pentodes are common tubes and they are not very expensive if you go for the chinese or russian (like sovtek) one.

If you want vintage tubes (Mullard, RCA, Siemens), it will cost you some money but the sound result will be absolutely better.

By myself I own few pairs of Mullard and Siemens and some Sovtek also (EL 84).

When I'm doing some deep listening I use the Mullard or Siemens (but I NEVER mix them!). Mullard Work very well with jazz, Siemens, who are a bit less powerfull and little softer work very well with chamber classical music (string quartet or Bach cello suite).

When I use music as a background I put the Sovtek on.

You can change them yourself with no difficulties.

When you are sure you won't listen to music anymore shut your amp because tube beginning to degrade at the very second you light them and even if you are not playing any music.

There are few Jolida amp, most of them use pentodes (I have heard a model who will provide sixty watts per channel with a push-pull of EL 34 and who can push difficult speaker to drive like Martin Logan or other electrostatic stuff with no difficulties at all. its has, also very good bass)

I think than there is no match for them, here, with any Nad amp.

Any Jolida amp will sound better if they are coupled with the rigth speakers according to the power they rate.

Another recommendation if you buy a tube amp.
You must let the tubes get the heat they need before make them sing.
It means than you must wait, at least, for a quater of an hour before start to play music. Maybe they need to get to their full potential an hour or even more. In all case, a quater is enough but NECESSARY before start to listening to music.
With Tubes it's the rule of the game.

My english writing is to limited to go deep in further explanation, but you must know than amp tube ask to be look after.

Aniway if you by a Jolida, I suppose you will be help by the sailer or the notice than Jolida provide with his amps.

I all case good luck and happy listening because there is nothing who can compare to a good tubes amp.

[visprashyana]

I would purchase the Jolida over the NAD without a doubt. I'm actually surprised that we are hearing positive responses about the NAD. In Chicago, you would have a difficult time just finding that brand because of its reputation. I've always run into people who mention NAD and repairs. As far as music quality, I would move towards a different line than NAD. Tubes have great musicality.

Depending on your budget, I still think that the Naim integrated are some of the best on the market and you will find one that is a demo or slightly used at a price that will beat either choice (i.e. Jolida/NAD) when purchased new. Used/demo Naim will absolutely sound better than new Jolida/NAD. I'm sure that you are apprehensive about demo/used, but you will get so much of a better value if you look in that area (especially in still economic state). I purchased a $2600 preamp which was in mint condition for $900 on Ebay. In general, be careful when you go out and purchase brand new equipment, it is often much more than used/demo equipment.

Different tubes make great differences if you go with the Jolida. I would recommend taking out whatever tubes they come with and putting in military tubes (JAN). They don't cost that much, but they are up to the highest quality specs and they will challenge New Old Stock tubes. The cost isn't that great either. If you get that integrated amp, I'd give Elite Audio a call in Chicago because you might as well purchase the tubes from the source instead of purchasing them from your dealer who probably buys them from here. They sell tubes at a very reasonable cost compared to other dealers around the US.

If you have any other questions, please feel free to ask. I hope this helps.

[jazzhound]

I would go with the NAIM also. I like to hear a tight bass so tube amps just don't cut it for me. Not enough punch.

[Lonson]

I love tight bass, and my Decware amp has it in SPADES. The idea of a flabby slow bass from tubes is based on experience with SOME vintage models, and is not at all accurate when discussing the bulk of today's tube amplifiers.

I'm not as fond of the Jolidas as some are here, but I would invite Sonnyhill to listen to one, and to also investigate the Decware site I listed (including the audio forum) and to look at other tube equipment and LISTEN to some before dismissing them out of hand based on obsolete information.

[Lonson]

Also, although you certainly CAN alter the sound of a tube amplifier with tubes, you don't have to use different tube types for different music; I have found several tubes that suit my musical needs overall. I find that I don't have to change "input" tubes at all for many many years, and depending on the efficiency of your speakers and the volume you play your amp at, output tubes can last several years to longer periods of time. I wouldn't let the "maintenance" aspect of tube amps worry you; it's not rocket science and it is not prohibitory in any way.

Nor do you have to wait fifteen to thirty minutes or more to listen to a tube amp. Most modern tube amps will sound pretty good right off the bat, and will sound better as they are used longer, thirty minutes to an hour, yes, but so in my opinion do solid state amps and any electronic appliance. You can turn on a tube amp and be listening within a minute, or at least with most models you would wish to buy.

Also my amplifier has a gain input knob and no preamplifier is needed for a cd or tape player input. This means you can have just one set of cables running into your amp and you can simplify the signal path, and save some money. I've been so happy with this amp!

[visprashyana]

I just wanted to make it clear that I own both solid state and tube electronics. Right now I have a Naim 102 preamp with a McIntosh 240. The combinations are endless. I have owned many different amps and preamps within both types of electronics. They both have different advantages and disadvantages.

I agree that changing input tubes for different types of music is a bit esoteric, but I also believe that if you are that much into the sound - there will be different types of music which will perform better with different tubes. But that said, that's not for the beginner - that's the advanced lesson. I've never had to change tubes more than every 3-4 years. It's not a big deal and it's pretty reasonable in the grand scheme of audio equipment.

Overall, I still lean towards the Naim integrated. If you want a great amp within reason go and check it out. It will give you the solid state speed with the tube musicality. The British amps are on the warm side and this one still retains the pace that many tubes miss. It's really going to blow the socks off the other two lines that you were considering. The issue is that you are going to have to find a demo or used piece. That takes time, but you will be happier in the end.

Finally, when it comes to the discussion of how long it takes in order to warm up your equipment - both solid state and tubes take a while before they sound their best. Of course, you can turn on your system and listen to and it will sound good - but if you let the pieces warm up for an hour or two they will sound better. It doesn't matter if you are talking about the amp, preamp, cd player, etc. - they all sound better when they are warmed up. This is true for tubes and solid state. That's just how it works. Good luck in your search.

[jazzhound]

Originally posted by Lonson
I love tight bass, and my Decware amp has it in SPADES. The idea of a flabby slow bass from tubes is based on experience with SOME vintage models, and is not at all accurate when discussing the bulk of today's tube amplifiers.

I'm not as fond of the Jolidas as some are here, but I would invite Sonnyhill to listen to one, and to also investigate the Decware site I listed (including the audio forum) and to look at other tube equipment and LISTEN to some before dismissing them out of hand based on obsolete information.

Most tube amps whether modern or vintage are not necessarily flabby or slow, but are not as resolving and tight as solid state amps. This is common knowledge. If you read reviews of tube gear as I do, the bottom end of tube amps is often described using solid state as the reference. Only the most sophisticated tube amps come close in this regard. And usually the most expensive.
As far as tube choice, different tubes yield significantly different results, even in my Melos preamp, which is a hybrid design. Some provide a rich midrange at the expense of a less taunt bass and visa versa. I definitely could see changing tubes according to the music I wanted to hear.
A couple of my friends are tube heads and their systems do sound significantly better after an hour or so.
All in all I say go with the best solid state you can afford, and if you want a warm sound, get some Discovery Signiture cables.

[sideshowbob]

Most tube amps whether modern or vintage are not necessarily flabby or slow, but are not as resolving and tight as solid state amps. This is common knowledge.

That's a blanket statement, and simply not true. It depends who you ask.

To get back to Sonny's original question, I'd recommend he listens to as many amps as possible, tube and solid state, and then decides which he prefers. If he likes Naim gear (especially the modern Naim stuff) he may not like tubes, for example - they present music quite differently.

Reviews only get you so far - only your own ears can decide. We all have our own internal reference for what sounds good to us.

-- Ian

[jazzhound]

A blanket statement? Can you reference me to an audio review that compared a tube amp to a solid state amp of the same price range and the tube amp can out on top in terms of bottom end resolution? I think not.
Reviews are of limited use, but I trust the guys who have been evaluating gear for a living for many years know something and certain consensus opinions developed over time usually hold water.
My reference in evaluating audio gear is the real world. I have been a musician since I was young and played in symphony orchestras starting in my teens. There is nothing internal about my frame of reference.

[Sonnyhill]

Thanks for all of your responses. I know that this is a contentious issue, but I thought that the hybrid design might have been the compromise that would have made my choice less difficult.

After all the above debate, I'm still leaning slightly in favor of tubes. From what little research I have done, the consensus is that tubes are more musical than ss. Since I will be listening 90% to acoustic jazz and classical, I think that tubes will be the way to go for me. The bass issue gives me pause though, I love good bass and think it is important for all musics, not just rock. I will also audition ss amps and try to check out a Naim as you suggested visprashyana.

Lon, I looked into decware, the tube amps look frightening, but I will definitely make an effort to hear them. Thanks, you have always provided solid advice from back at the BNBB.

Used equipment scares me. If I were to buy used, I would not feel comfortable purchasing on Ebay. If I was even to consider purchasing a used item it would be from a reputable dealer with whom I could negotiate the terms of sale and hold responsible if the equipment had any issues.

Also, even if I had it, I don't think I would spend thousands upon thousands of dollars on audio equipment. For the start of my system, which I hope to purchase months from now, I hope to spend max $3000-3500, which includes speakers (probably Paradigm reference 80s or Dynaudio 72s, something in the <$2000 price range) and probably integrated amplifier.

The only reason I can justify spending that much is because I love the music so much and believe that it is worth a solid investment in equipment that I plan to keep a long time.

A couple of questions:

If there was some bass response lacking in tube gear that I like otherwise, is it possible that it could be ameliorated by adding a sub to the system?

Lastly, does anyone know of a reputable audio dealer in the NYC area that they could recommend who carries both tube and ss and has a good listening room?

Thanks.

[sideshowbob]

Originally posted by jazzhound
A blanket statement? Can you reference me to an audio review that compared a tube amp to a solid state amp of the same price range and the tube amp can out on top in terms of bottom end resolution? I think not.
Reviews are of limited use, but I trust the guys who have been evaluating gear for a living for many years know something and certain consensus opinions developed over time usually hold water.
My reference in evaluating audio gear is the real world. I have been a musician since I was young and played in symphony orchestras starting in my teens. There is nothing internal about my frame of reference.

Jazzhound, I don't need to. I own a Naim 42.5 pre / 110 power amp combo in my bedroom system, and a Sugden solid state / EAR tubed phono stage combo in my main system. So I'm actually speaking from experience, not from reviews.

And yes, your reference is internal - it's your idea of what sounds right, which, with respect, is not objective and has no bearing on what anybody else hears. Ask twenty people to describe the similarities and differences between tube amp A and solid state amp B and you'll get twenty different answers. We all hear things differently, and look for different things from audio equipment. Some value neutrality and transparancy, others warmth, some prefer vinyl to CD, some vice versa, and so on.

All I'm saying is that nobody should decide between tubes or solid state based on reviews or someone else's opinion, but should listen and decide for themselves. Don't get so defensive about it.

-- Ian

[Lonson]

Well said Ian.

Audio is continually interesting to talk about as it is so subjective.

[jazzhound]

Originally posted by sideshowbob


Jazzhound, I don't need to. I own a Naim 42.5 pre / 110 power amp combo in my bedroom system, and a Sugden solid state / EAR tubed phono stage combo in my main system. So I'm actually speaking from experience, not from reviews.

And yes, your reference is internal - it's your idea of what sounds right, which, with respect, is not objective and has no bearing on what anybody else hears. Ask twenty people to describe the similarities and differences between tube amp A and solid state amp B and you'll get twenty different answers. We all hear things differently, and look for different things from audio equipment. Some value neutrality and transparancy, others warmth, some prefer vinyl to CD, some vice versa, and so on.

All I'm saying is that nobody should decide between tubes or solid state based on reviews or someone else's opinion, but should listen and decide for themselves. Don't get so defensive about it.

-- Ian

well Ian,
You are right about one thing, I do have an internal reference but the problem is most people don't. They are evaluating audio gear based on what gives them the most pleasure or instant gratification. instead of what provides a more accurate picture of what is really there. In the long run, having equipment that is accurate provides more satisfaction, because it doesn't impose its sound on the music. (and lower distortion products let more music shine through.)
Just because people can't articuate what they hear doesn't mean we all hear differently. This notion couldn't be further from the truth. The Statovarious violins have legendary status because everyone who played them could hear the same tone and furthermore deem it more pleasing that all others. Recording
engineers gravitate to the same mics to achieve certain sounds because they hear the same, not differently.
Learning how to objectively evaluate audio gear in the end will save the consumer alot of money and grief and enable him experience music more fully than those who don't..

[sideshowbob]

hey Jazzhound, now you've opened a can of worms ...

The debate about accuracy versus colouration, and which gear gets closest to what's on the master tape, has been going on since the beginning of the audio industry. As have debates about how to audition equipment. Nobody agrees, in the end. We could spend forever debating it. As long as we all end up with systems that give us musical pleasure, with both good and bad recordings, the debate shouldn't matter much.

FWIW, my main system is extremely transparent and timbrally accurate. Both the solid state and tube bits :cool: The Naim system, on the other hand, is neither, but is still fun to listen to.

-- Ian

[jazzhound]

some comments about this integrated amp from the June/July 2002 Absolute Sound:
"the Nait possesses a top-to-bottom wholeness in tone, texture, clarity, and resolution that makes listening to music a highly satisfying experience."
Its sound is suffused with warmth, but not thickness."
Naim's latest is a sonic wonder, delivering so much musical pleasure at such a reasonable price ...."
"Simply put,Naim's Nait 5 is an astonishingly fine integrated amplifier"

List price is 1500 bucks.

[Sonnyhill]

Thanks everyone for your comments and suggestions.

However, I'm probably going with tubes and will try the decware SELECT Zen Triode Amp model SE84C-S from the site that Lon suggested. From all of the reviews that I have read, this seems like it will give the biggest bang for the buck. It's mail-order only, but with a 30-day money-back guarantee.

Over the summer, I'll probably try a tube amp and some Klipsch RF 5 speakers and see if everything I've been reading about tube amps is true.

However, can anyone recommend other reputable tube amp manufacturers that I might look into?

[Lonson]

Sonny, I think you'll enjoy your trial experience with the Select and keep it.

One day when my life is different, I'm going to try building my own tube amp, and probably one of the designs here:

http://www.bottlehead.com/et/et.html

But I STILL don't think (and others who have heard both tell me this) that I'll find any of these to be better than the Select.

[jazzhound]

One thing is for sure.... you won't have to worry about waking up the neighbors! :D

[Lonson]

That's not a fact. . . with the right (efficient) speakers you can scare away the neighbors, though they might want to stay and enjoy the tunes!

[David McFarlane]

I'd like to echo Lon's comments. A lot depends on the speakers.

I have a pair of KEF Reference Model Two speakers (90 db) and have powered them with a Zen C and currently a Zen Select. The sound depends on the music. Most of the jazz albums I play sound great. I used to run my CD player directly into the Zen. Two years ago I gave my son a Bottlehead Foreplay preamp kit for Christmas. It is now paired with my Zen; this pair is quite enjoyable. I will admit, I am unable to get decent orchestral volume with these speakers. Ditto, for decent analog reproduction even though my "listening room" is rather small, 11X14X8. I usually switch over to my McIntosh solid state components for big band and analog. Too bad, the sound stage delivered by the Zen is wonderful.

I am strongly considering the Decware Integrated or TORII; however, I am reluctant to give up the Zen Select sound. I've even thought about dual Selects. Although I love the KEF speakers, there are probably better choices for the Select. Most of the Decware owners listeners would suggest much higher efficiency speakers.

This is definitely a try before you buy situation. The great thing about Steve and his products is you can do just that.

Good luck!

David

[Hackensack]

FWIW, I have the Zen Integrated and use it with Klipsch Reference speakers rated (by Klipsch) at 96db. I get way more than enough on the volume score in my medium-to-large room, and I'm very happy with the sound.

David, I would think the thing to do for you would definitely be to add another Select. You'll keep the same sound, and save a few bucks too.

[Sonnyhill]

Hackensack, David, or Lon: would you recommend starting out with the Zen integrated or a Zen Select?

[Lonson]

My two cents: if you can afford it, I would try the Integrated; that is what I would do if I were starting out. It was not available when I started out on Decware, but I've been intrigued ever since it was introduced. It will allow you more speaker flexibility. It will allow you to use more than one source. It likely has a wonderful sound, as you can wire the EL34s as pure triodes, and these are very good tubes, my favorite output tubes really. Worth some deep thought.

[David McFarlane]

I would have absolutely started with the Zen Integrated if it had been available; however, I was in too much of a hurry to follow Lon's advice a couple of years ago. ;) My speakers would benefit greatly from the extra power. In addition, the capabilities of the Integrated are phenomenal. I will have one of these someday. If you can swing the finances, go for it.