need help with tritone subtitution
 

Ok here goes

I went through Mark Levines Piano Jazz Book and there was something called "Tritone Subtitution" in it. I'm just a little confused on how its supposed to work. I understand that it only works on the domiant seventh chords. So its like how C7 and Gb7 have the same tritones so they can subtitute for each other.

But as i started to look at it, if the base player plays C in the base, then someone soloing over it with a Gb7 scale kinda just doesnt sound right. I mean Gb7 over C7 would be a C7 scale with 9b, 9#, 11#, 13b, and 7#. I dont know, maybe i just dont understand it or its intentional to have all those subtitutions.

Can someone please help me???

I'll get to tritone substitution, but first, just for now, forget your notion of a "Gb7" scale.

Instead, clear your mind for a minute, then consider this:

The "normal" extensions of a dominant 7 chord are 9 +11 13 (+11 is necessary instead of 11, since 11 "clashes" with 3 in the chord). So the notes of a normal dominant 7 chord are 1 3 5 b7 9 +11 13, or as a scale, 1 9 3 +11 5 13 b7. But that scale is just a mode of melodic minor (when I say 'melodic minor', I always mean the notes of the [I]ascending[/I] melodic minor scale).

In particular, the normal extensions of Gb7 are Ab (which is 9) C (which is +11) Eb (which is 13). So the notes of the chord are Gb Bb Db Fb Ab C Eb, or as a scale, Gb Ab Bb C Db Eb Fb. But that is just a mode of Db melodic minor.

So the "perfect" scale for Gb7 is Db melodic minor.

So think of the scale for a dominant 7 chord as the melodic minor scale built a perfect 5th above the root of the dominant 7 chord. If the root of the dominant 7 chord is Gb, then the scale is Db melodic minor, which is the melodic minor scale built on the 5th of the Gb7 chord.

Now, stop for a minute and make sure you understand that principle.

Okay, you've got that down now. The scale for a dominant 7 chord is the melodic minor scale built on the 5th of the dominant 7 chord. So the scale for Gb7 is Db melodic minor.

Moving on now.

Consider doing all the alterations to a dominant 7 chord. You can't change the root (1), the third (3), the flat 7th (b7), nor the augmented 11th (+11) . But you can change 5 to +5, change 9 to both b9 and +9, and you'll have to drop 13 since it clashes with +5. So the notes are 1 3 +5 b7 b9 +9 +11. For C7, the notes are C E G# Bb Db D# F#, or enharmonically, C Fb Ab Bb Db Eb Gb. Arranged as a scale: C Db Eb Fb Gb Ab Bb. And if we start on Db instead of C, we get Db Eb Fb Gb Ab Bb C.

But wait! That's the Db melodic minor scale again! Magic!

Now let's abbreviate C7 with all the alterations as 'C7alt'. So Db melodic minor is the scale for both C7alt and for Gb7. In other words, C7alt and Gb7 are just inversions of each other. In a sense, they're the [I]same[/I] chord.

So the chain of reasoning goes something like this: You see C7 on the chart. But you don't want a plain old C7. Instead, you want a real fancy C7. Well, the fanciest C7 you can get is C7alt. So you substitute C7alt for C7. But C7alt is just an inversion of Gb7. So really you're playing a Gb7 now. Voila, a tritone substitution. And remember, when you play on a Gb7, you play Db melodic minor.

Now this makes it really easy to remember: If you want to solo with a tritone substitution, just play the melodic minor scale built on the note a half step above the root of the dominant 7 chord. So on C7 you'd solo with the notes of the Db melodic minor scale.

Now, if your pianist and bassist are hearing you, then they can play C7alt (same as Gb7) instead of C7 and you'll all be together.

Okay, that's one way to look at it:

Here's another way to look at it:

Consider changing the C7 chord this way: leave 5 as is, but change 9 to both b9 and +9, and you can keep 13 since there's no +5 to clash with. So the notes are C E G Bb Db D# F# A. Spelled enharmonically and rearranged as a scale starting on Db, the notes are Db Eb E F# G A Bb C. But that's just the Db diminished scale.

Now do the same for Gb7. Guess what? Rearrange the notes and again you come up with the Db diminished scale!

So C7(b9 +9) is just an inversion of Gb7(b9 +9). In a sense, they're the [I]same[/I] chord.

Again, it's easy to remember: For a dominant 7 chord, if you want another variation on tritone substitution, just play the diminished scale built on the note a half step above the root of the dominant 7 chord.

And, again, your rhythm section can follow along (or vice versa as they might play a tritone substitution that you can reflect in your solo).

So you've got two ways to solo with tritone substitution: 1) Play the melodic minor scale a half step above the root of the dominant, or 2) Play the diminished scale a half step above the root of the dominant.

In terms of notation, usually, the melodic minor scale option is notated as C7alt, and the diminished scale option is notated as C7b9.

But wait, there's more!

Not only are C7(b9 +9) and Gb7(b9 +9) the same chord, they're also the same as Eb7(b9 +9) and A7(b9 +9). So not only can C7 and Gb7 substitute for each other, but C7 Gb7 Eb7 and A7 can all substitute for one another (so not only is there tritone substitution, there's minor third substitution too). These chords, with b9 and +9, are all represented by the Db diminished scale, which, starting on different notes, is the same as the E diminished scale, the G diminished scale, and the Bb7 diminished scale. But E G Bb are just 3 5 b7 of the C7 chord.

So if you're going to play a diminished scale tritone substitution on C7, you can think of it as the diminished scale starting on Db (b9) or on E (3) or on G (5) or on Bb (b7). Memorize the principle any of the four ways you like. (The only reason I like to think of it starting on b9 is that that is the same note that you start the melodic minor scale on.)

But wait, there's more!

Not only is Db melodic minor the scale for Gb7 and for C7alt, it's also the scale for Db-M7, for Ebsus7(b9 +9), and for Bb-7(b5). Also, if you leave out the note Db itself, then the rest of the notes of the Db melodic minor scale are the notes for E+M7.

One more thing: You said tritone substitution only works for dominant 7 chords. But, if you want to stretch just a little further "outside", you can also use tritone substitution with minor 7 chords. So for D-7 you could substitute Gb-7, or (for minor third substitution) even F-7 or B-7.

[QUOTE=kingclockic]Ok here goes

I went through Mark Levines Piano Jazz Book and there was something called "Tritone Subtitution" in it. I'm just a little confused on how its supposed to work. I understand that it only works on the domiant seventh chords. So its like how C7 and Gb7 have the same tritones so they can subtitute for each other.

But as i started to look at it, if the base player plays C in the base, then someone soloing over it with a Gb7 scale kinda just doesnt sound right. I mean Gb7 over C7 would be a C7 scale with 9b, 9#, 11#, 13b, and 7#. I dont know, maybe i just dont understand it or its intentional to have all those subtitutions.

Can someone please help me???[/QUOTE]


If you read/understand/learn the chapter in that same book about left-hand voicings, some things may get more clear to you: the left-hand voicing for Gb7 is identically to the left-hand voicing for C7alt., and as Lee explained, those two chords actually belong to the same melodic minor scale.
But I think the problem is, that you are actually thinking about tritone substitution as if it were some thing you could play whenever you want without any cooperation with the bass. I f the bass player plays that C (the root, because he reads C7), and you play a Gb7 left-handvoicing, you're actually not playing tritone substition, you are then just playing C7alt.
So in order to play a "real" tritone substitution, the bass would have to play a Gb root, with you playing a Gb7 voicing, althoug C7 is what the lead sheet actually said....

So I think of tritone substitution as more of some kind of composer-thing.
Take a look at Wayne Shorter's E.S.P. e.g.: the last two bars are the best example of a tritone substitution: Dbm7-Gb7-Fmaj7

More mud in the water:

The theory of tritone substition relys upon the bipolar instability of the tritone interval:

by that, I mean the tritone F/B are the pivot notes in both the G7 And the Db 7, in one case the notes are 7th and thirds, in the other the third and seventh ..

to take things a step further, put two tritones a step apart together in a cluster ..reading up:

FG BDb ..

this structure can be read as BOTH a G7 5b ..and a DB7 5b

again , functions change ( 3rds become 7ths ..and G and Db function as both a root and A lovered 5th depending on the bass note )

both of the forms of the G or Db diminished scales work well over these clusters ..

BTW: another function of the tritone sub can be seen by adding the secondary dominant to precede a tritone substition:

i.e.: in all the things your are, the 1st four bars originally:

Fmi7 Bbmi7 Eb7 Abmaj 7

if you use the tritone sub in bar three ( A7 5b ..which use three of the same notes as the original chord) but PRECEDE it with the secondary dominant ..which is an ADDITIONAL tritone sub from the Bbminor in the second bar ( Emi 7 to A75b ) you'll arrive at a more interesting set of chords ..

Fmi7 Bbmi7 (Emi7 A7 5b ) Abmaj 7

:yeahthat:

not sure
 

I know someone will correct me if I'm wrong but ain't the idea of a substitution that it will fit harmonically with the original progression. Meaning you can solo on it as you would the original tune, you are just varying the harmonic colors. I know there are a number of other ways to approach this but for starting to work with or solo on substitutions think of it as the same tune with an altered harmonic structure...???

[QUOTE=mother of invention]I know someone will correct me if I'm wrong but ain't the idea of a substitution that it will fit harmonically with the original progression. Meaning you can solo on it as you would the original tune, you are just varying the harmonic colors. I know there are a number of other ways to approach this but for starting to work with or solo on substitutions think of it as the same tune with an altered harmonic structure...???[/QUOTE]



No to the first statement .. the whole idea of the substition is to enrich the progression, and the soloist should in general follow the harmonic alterations ..

Yes to the second statement :D

[QUOTE=mother of invention]I know someone will correct me if I'm wrong but ain't the idea of a substitution that it will fit harmonically with the original progression. [/QUOTE]

You can make the tritone sub as a soloist even if your bass player and piano player are playing C7, although you have be a little bit careful.

The soloist's equivalent of making the b5 sub is to play the altered scale.

The two modes that figure prominently in this are the Lydian dominant, and the Altered scale, both melodic minor modes. When one is transposed by a b5 they consist of the same notes.

Lydian dominant (C D E F# G A Bb C) is a very natural scale to play over a C7. The only real conventional alternative would be mixolydian, which is the same except for the #11. (I do like that tasty #11). If you make the b5 sub as a soloist, while your rythm section doesn't, you will play Calt (C Db Eb Fb Gb Ab Bb C) over the C7. Another way of looking at this is that you are playing lydian dominant over the b5 sub of C7.

Charlie Parker often uses the b5 sub on a whim. You can often hear him use the an alt scale in chorus and one of the more conventional dominants in another chorus.

Does this work? Yes. Although you have be careful about the b5 #5.

The problem is that, only two of the three 5ths sound good at any one time. If you're lucky, your rythm section will leave out the 5th. If they know that you like to make the b5 sub they may leave the 5th out. If they are really good, they may be able to switch to using b5 (C7b5), or the bV sub (Gb7)when they hear you play one of the characteristic notes of the alt scale.

If there's no natural fifth behind you, then you can play whatever you want out of the alt scale.

If they do play the fifth, then the secret is avoid playing *both* of the b5 and #5.

Consider what happens if you approach the 5th from the bottom half of the alt scale:

C Db Eb Fb Gb.

That sounds very tasty over a C7. In fact, it's also a fragment of the diminished scale. Adding the natural 5, G, would be the next note in the diminished.

If you play down from the top of the alt scale, you get

C Bb Ab.

You end up coloring the C7 with a b13, which is fine.

If worst comes to worst, your rythm section plays the 5th, and you play the b5 and the #5, then it sounds a bit outside, but it still sounds fine, as long as you play it like you mean it.

Occasionally you'll hear Parker using "encirclement" (considered a Parker signature technique) on those notes: Ab F# G. I'm not sure if that really consciously fits into the theory of b5 subs, but it is rather interesting when you look at the big picture of playing over dominants.

If your rythm section throws in a 9th somewhere, things get a little scary when you make a b5 sub. But, when comping, my feeling is that it's the soloist who gets to pick which ninth to use (9, or b9/#9). Levine seems to be of this opinion too. When comping it's my responisiblity to use sharp ears if I'm going to add a ninth to a dominant. As a guitarist, the choice is whether to use straight dominant cluster (C9, C13, etc), or one of the alt cluster (C7#9 no 5, or C7b9 no 5, C7#9#5 etc -- all very natural guitar chords). It's really pretty easy to hear which one the solist is calling for, because the conventional Lydian dominant/mixolydian scales share few notes with the alt scale.

Interestingly, if you remove the b9/#9 from the alt scale, and drop in a natural ninth, you end up with a wholetone scale. C D E F# G# A# C. One of the scales of choice over C7+.

As usual, if everyone plays clashing 9ths, play with authority, play it like you mean it, and it will sound very outside, but it will still sound good.

PS.

Thinking... hmm. Never noticed that. Really pretty interesting when you look at scales over dominants as two tetra scales split around the 5th. Diminished scale is the bottom half of the alt scale spliced onto the top half of an lydian dominant scale. A wholetone scale is the bottom half of a lydian dominant spliced onto the top half of an alt scale. One of those things that kind of makes you want to go "hmmmm". <scurries off to play with that idea a bit>

[QUOTE=edrowland]The problem is that, only two of the three 5ths sound good at any one time. If you're lucky, your rythm section will leave out the 5th. If they know that you like to make the b5 sub they may leave the 5th out. If they are really good, they may be able to switch to using b5 (C7b5), or the bV sub (Gb7)when they hear you play one of the characteristic notes of the alt scale.

If there's no natural fifth behind you, then you can play whatever you want out of the alt scale.

If they do play the fifth, then the secret is avoid playing *both* of the b5 and #5.


[/QUOTE]


Very good info Ed! :clap:

I'd just like to add that the real bugbear in many instances is the use of the #5 ..the b5 and natural 5 are common to both diminished scales and the blues hexatonic scale as well as those you mentioned earlier ..

If alway seemed to me that the employment of a #5 in a dominant type chord indicates a strong tendency to want to resolve UP ..while the same tone in a Major seventh structure feels more like a flatted 6th resolving DOWN to the natural 5th ..

Ed,

"If [the pianist and bassist do] play the fifth, then the secret is avoid playing *both* of the b5 and #5."

By 'the fifth', do you mean a perfect 5th?

I take '5' to mean a perfect 5th, 'b5' usually to mean +11, and 'b13' usually to mean +5.

So I would list the compatibilities as:

+11 okay with 5.
+11 okay with +5.
+5 clashes with 5.

I would list the scale choices for dominant chords as:

chord ... scale

1) C7 ... G melodic minor = C lydian dominant.

2) C7b9 or C7+9 or C7b9+9 or Dbdim7... Db diminished

3) C7alt ... Db melodic minor = C altered

4) C+7 or C7b5 ... C whole tone [note: for C7b5, b13 is actually b13, not +5]

5) Csus7 ... F major = C mixolydian (but the note E is dubious)

6) Csus7b9 or Csus7+9 or Csus7b9+9 ... Bb melodic minor

7) C+M7 ... A melodic minor = C lydian augmented (but the note A is an avoid note)

I wonder what your and Phil's thoughts are about this.

[QUOTE=Lee Gato]I would list the scale choices for dominant chords as:

chord ... scale

1) C7 ... G melodic minor = C lydian dominant.

2) C7b9 or C7+9 or C7b9+9 or Dbdim7... Db diminished

3) C7alt ... Db melodic minor = C altered

4) C+7 or C7b5 ... C whole tone [note: for C7b5, b13 is actually b13, not +5]

5) Csus7 ... F major = C mixolydian (but the note E is dubious)

6) Csus7b9 or Csus7+9 or Csus7b9+9 ... Bb melodic minor

7) C+M7 ... A melodic minor = C lydian augmented (but the note A is an avoid note)

I wonder what your and Phil's thoughts are about this.[/QUOTE]



All these choices make sense to me and should give you a lot to work with melodically ..

keep in mind you were concentrating mainly on heptatonic scales ..there are other resources in the artificial pentatonics too:

i.e.:

>>7) C+M7 ... A melodic minor = C lydian augmented (but the note A is an avoid note)


there is a japanese pentatonic scale that avoids the A ..basically it's the E major chord with an added F and C

F F G# B C

But of course no one is suggesting that posing umpteen modal choices is going to help a beginner learn how to play jazz, right? At least I hope not, given that the poster of the original question is clearly a beginner trying to learn to *solo* and not just to choke on the bandstand, wondering which notes "fit" within some trivial diatonic progression!

Here's a listening exercise: check out how Monk plays the turnaround (sometimes) on a few of his recordings of "Everything Happens to Me" -- Bb7 --> E7 etc. Or listen to Jimmy Smith playing a blues, like "The Sermon" -- listen for the tritone sub on the turnaround in the key of F.

You'll find it's not something worth thinking about too much -- listen to real performances of a tune by players who speak to you, and don't worry about abstract theory. Of course, this is all pace Phil Kelly, and other monster arrangers who use this theory everyday, but, I'll wager, not in the same way that a jazz soloist really thinks about the theory where it counts. I.e., in creating a great solo.

[QUOTE=Lee Gato]
+5 clashes with 5.
[/QUOTE]

I think +5 (really functioning as a b13, as you point out) and perfect fifth is ok. I was comparing notes with someone over the fretboard recently, and I noticed that I was using b13 over dominant a fair bit. And I couldn't for the life of me figure out what the scale was. When I use it, I tend to use it in this scale:

Chord / scale fragment
G7 / D Eb F G Ab Bb B-natural.


What scale is that? You know. I'm not honestly sure. But sounds ok to my ears. (Figuring it out....) I guess it's mode III of Eb flat harmonic major. All the really pretty notes of alt, without the challenge of the b5 b13 of the alt, which, truthfully, I've always found difficult and dangerous.


[QUOTE=Lee Gato]
5) Csus7 ... F major = C mixolydian (but the note E is dubious)
6) Csus7b9 or Csus7+9 or Csus7b9+9 ... Bb melodic minor
note)
[/QUOTE]
I'd never really thought of considering sus chords as functional dominants, but it makes perfect sense. Thanks for the idea. Just out of curiousity, where did you pick up that idea? I've been hunting for a good book on advanced harmony for a while. Levine touches on the theory of sus chords a little. But I'd like more, and I haven't yet found a decent book on harmony that goes further than Levine does on modern chord progressions.

The one other mode I can think of for dominant is the "all twelve notes are good" scale. :wink2: Not sure what the chord symbol for that is.

Again, and what does this have to do with improvising music? Does anyone remember the original question posed by the starter of this thread?

I can recommend checking out justjazz (you can figure out where to go with your dot coms and whatnot) for some enlightenment on this topic.

But do you seriously think any of this theory -- which is interesting, to me, personally -- has any relevance to learning how to improvise? Egad! No wonder the original poster jumped thread -- can you blame him?

The simple answer is, listen to how players you admire navigate/substitute tritone dom7s -- I already gave two examples suitable for a beginning player. What examples of REAL playing do you have to offer?

Peace, J. I think he got a pretty good answer to his question. And then we digressed. As far as beginners go, the important part of the information in the digression is that we're all learning all the time, no matter how good we are.

And ... and... it is all so interesting.

Although I will concede that you provide valuable input by pointing out that a good deal of what has gone before is above and beyond the call of duty for a beginner.

Hey, that's cool, man -- thanks for understanding my perspective. I'd love for this discussion to continue all day, so to speak -- I've learned a few new things here and wouldn't ever want to squash a good discussion, even though I've got some strong opinions on what *I* think is the way to go about things, from a beginner's perspective, since I've been there and had to learn the hard way, and so forth. Cool!