Alterations/tailoring or is that Tayloring?
 

What does one mean by Ealt7 for example? If they just put altered that could be a whole lot of things,Yes. no?

technically it means that you play an E7 chord and then add all the extentions of the chord in their varied altered state (9 #9, b9, #11, b13)

it implies the 7th Mode of the Melodic Minor Scale.

Generally Pianists can cover all of that. Guitarists however cannot cover all the extentions of the chord unless they want to do it as poly chords but can pick and choose extentions to alter to produce chords. Alt is just short hand anyways and to me when I see it on a chart basically means a free-for-all on the dominant chord.

Since Dominant Chords generally are the most diverse sounding chords you can change whatever extentions you want as long as you keep the tri-tone between the 3rd and 7th intact.

I gotta chime in here:

I've never cared for the term "altered" 7th ..it's derived from a sublanguage I call "Berkeley-speak"
and it is a very indefinite term that really tells you little ..Jakes' answer is far better.

as a matter of fact, in many cases, ALL the chordal players ( with the exception of the bass ) will do well to build on the 3/7 tritone ( or 7/3 ..with tritone root sub ) and avoid roots and 5ths in general ..and concentrate on the color tones in the upper structure ( and the alterations thereof ..) :tanz:

[QUOTE]I've never cared for the term "altered" 7th ..it's derived from a sublanguage I call "Berkeley-speak" and it is a very indefinite term that really tells you little [/QUOTE]
i guess as an aranger alt7 is something you wouldn't think of using, but the term does have it's uses... first example of where it's useful that comes to my head is in my band we play 'freedom jazz dance'... because the idea of this tune is that it's non-tonal, the ambiguous nature of a Bb7alt is all that's needed as it allows everyone freedom to play whatever alterations they wish... of course, band members have to be careful to listen to everyone else, because even though the idea is to get an atonal sound, it can easily sound like a whole bunch of people just doing their own thing if you're not careful.

my advice, is if you're playing in a group and you see an alt7 in the chart, always listen to what is hapening around you, and listen for how you can fill in the harmonic space apropriately... it doesn't necesarily have to harmonise acording to traditional harmony, but what you play should sit in context with the rest of the group somehow.

it should also sit in the context of the tune as well... if the alt7 chord is part of a progression, the alterations used should sit in context of the chords surrounding it, and the voicings you used.

[QUOTE=Jakeweiser]technically it means that you play an E7 chord and then add all the extentions of the chord in their varied altered state (9 #9, b9, #11, b13)

it implies the 7th Mode of the Melodic Minor Scale.

....[/QUOTE]

Typo? Natural 9 is not normally accepted as an altered tone or in an altered chord; it is a natural extension of an unaltered triad/chord. ['Course nat. 9 on min7b5 is often debatable.] I reckon if you use nat. 9 in an alt.7, it'd be about as altered as you could get.

Yeah that stems from what Phil was saying that Altered is a poor term. I've played big band charts with Altered Chords written for the guitar chart when all 3 of the 9ths were in the band. It's a very out sound.

Like I suggested, free for all. Generally I pick one 9 (# or b)and all the #5 (b13 if you rather) and #11

Altered Dominant - Beautiful !!
 

The Altered dominant sound and tonality in jazz is useful in giving us that nice passing tone and resolve.
Look it up in a few books or whatever.
An example might be 11 v valt 1
Dmin9 G69 G7b9b13 CMaj9









[QUOTE=mother of invention]What does one mean by Ealt7 for example? If they just put altered that could be a whole lot of things,Yes. no?[/QUOTE]

Altered Dominant - Beautiful !!
 

I have only ever used "altered" as it quite correctly refers to Dominant.
Altered Dominant. eg: G7b9b13, G7#9 etc.
I feel that there may be a bit of confusion if we start refering to the 7th degree as being "altered" in other voicings ie: Major or Minor etc.
for me, the Altered Dominant fits really nicely as only it is intended : as an extension of the dominant.
eg : 1 v1 11 v
basic Cmaj7 Amin 7 Dmin7 G7

variation: Cmaj7toLydian A7b9b13 D7b9b13 G7b9b13

melodic: play harmonic minor scale a 4th up over the Alt dom chords - nice!!







[QUOTE=benny]i guess as an aranger alt7 is something you wouldn't think of using, but the term does have it's uses... first example of where it's useful that comes to my head is in my band we play 'freedom jazz dance'... because the idea of this tune is that it's non-tonal, the ambiguous nature of a Bb7alt is all that's needed as it allows everyone freedom to play whatever alterations they wish... of course, band members have to be careful to listen to everyone else, because even though the idea is to get an atonal sound, it can easily sound like a whole bunch of people just doing their own thing if you're not careful.

my advice, is if you're playing in a group and you see an alt7 in the chart, always listen to what is hapening around you, and listen for how you can fill in the harmonic space apropriately... it doesn't necesarily have to harmonise acording to traditional harmony, but what you play should sit in context with the rest of the group somehow.

it should also sit in the context of the tune as well... if the alt7 chord is part of a progression, the alterations used should sit in context of the chords surrounding it, and the voicings you used.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=lydianipple]The Altered dominant sound and tonality in jazz is useful in giving us that nice passing tone and resolve.
Look it up in a few books or whatever.
An example might be 11 v valt 1
Dmin9 G69 G7b9b13 CMaj9[/QUOTE]

more nitpickery:

1. In the thrd chord, the b13 is actually functionally the augmented 5th ..

2. The progression of G6/9 to G+7b9 ( or G7b9b13 if you insist ) seems weak ..

now : if it were Dmi 9 /Ab7b5 13 / G+7b9 ? Cma9
I'll buy it ..

Interesting. I like Alt7. It's a great innovation. I'm surprised others don't share my enthusiasm.

As I read it, Alt7 is an unambiguous and certain commandment to fully embrace the dark side of the altered scale. This has implications both for soloing and comping.

As Jake says, it is an invitiation to wail away. But it is an invitation to wail away selectively. As I read it, both the natural 5th and 9ths are extreme avoid notes on top of an Alt7. i.e. the scale is alt, and alt is the scale, and any of the extreme altered chords (#9/no5, #9/b13, b9/b5, etc.) of the alt mode are also fair game for comping.

7b13 is not the same thing at all. (Is 7b13 old-style notation for alt? Anyone?). To me, 7b13 invites the use of the natural 5th, so natural 5th is a comping avoid note. 7#9 and 7b9 strongly invite the use of diminished scale (if not outright requiring them). Certainly, I'll comp both the natural 5 and b13 pretty freely in the same bar when these chords are on the chart (which is a diminished mode-ism).

In older charts, there doesn't seem to be a firm convention for notating Alt. There are endless variations of huge stacks of alterations: #5/b9, #5/#9, #5/b9/#9, are common, and even a few oddball stacks with #11 thrown in. I've even seen the rare and unusal 7(b9/#9) in an older chart. All of these invariably seem to mean alt in practice as far as I can tell. I really can't think of an alternative for written 7(#5/#9), for example, that isn't alt off the top of my head, and I really can't imagine that comping 7(b5/b9) over written 7(#5/#9) is going to raise any eyebrows. Old-style notation for alt-like harmonies seems to be all over the place.

In practice, all of these chords get subbed pretty freely with dominant substitutions of all shapes and flavors. Nobody is going to throw you off the stage for playing a natural 5th over an alt chord in a solo. (makes a note to self to go try that). But, on the other hand, comping a natural 5th over an alt chord is pushing your luck.

As I see it, Alt is just a notational improvement that seems to come up at about the same time that 7#11 replaces the evil and totally idiosyncratic use of 7b5. 7#11 is a notational improvement in that the alteration is of correct degree. Alt is an improvement in that it replaces literally dozens of possible notations for the same cluster of comping chords with one unambiguous notation.

It's interesting that Phil pegs it as a "berkeley-ism". I see it as part of a larger move to notate both scales and modes unambiguously with chord symbols, which may well be a berkeley-ism. But I think's it's a laudable berkelyism. While unambiguous notation of modes may restrict choices somewhat, it does have the advantage that the restricted choice is always a correct choice. As a side-effect, frees up brain cycles for more important things like melodic construction. And it is freeing, I think, for everyone, to know which 5ths are fair game. With generic dominant subs, all the 5ths end up being avoid notes (actually "careful" notes, but you know what I mean) for rythm section; with the "alt7" notation b5 and b13 are freely available without having to waste valuable brain cycles on listening carefully. If it's a berkely-ims, I like it. But then again, I like most berkeley-isms.

Sorry Ed ..I didn't mean to demean "Berkeley -isms"

most of them have a good point ( i.e. avoid notes, etc )

Just for the record, I thoroughly agree about being careful of ( or omitting ) perfect 5ths in jazz formations ..in most cases, they do become an "avoid" note ..

just for the record: spell out what you consider a G altered 7th chord ..and scale(s) that match it..

as a writer, I generally tend to think harmonically in terms of whatever other structures can be placed atop the 3 and 7 ( or 7 and 3 of the tritonesub ) as opposed to "altered" , but that's just me ..

i.e. G ( or Db ) bass ..F and B

with Db ,Bb, E maj ( or G, if the bass note is Db ) or minor triads superimposed ..

as one example.

"Berkeley-ism," "Berkeley-speak"
 

"Berkeley" or "Berklee"? Trying to get geographically oriented before I tackle "alt."

As Phil said, it's nice to think of structures over the 3,7, or 7,3.
Bill Evans (and others) tended to work through 3 note triads based on "altered scale" 7th mode of mel minor.
e.g.
over G7alt G,Bb,Db Ab,B,Eb, Bb,Db,F, B,D#,G, Db,F,Ab, Eb,G,Bb, F,Ab,B

Nothing new for everyone I'm sure, but I enjoy playing around with these, and finding the strongest shapes depending on the melody.

Good to read everyone's views. I'm still very much learning, so this is a good page for me to read.
Thanks

[QUOTE=DIS]"Berkeley" or "Berklee"? Trying to get geographically oriented before I tackle "alt."[/QUOTE]


mea culpa .."berklee-isms "

now that my typing deficiencies have been dealt with, get with the spelling in question ..

The idea behind "Berkleeism" notation was to create a common ground from various notations that were/are used universally into a one (common) language, to get everyone on the same page, so to speak; so I was told.

[Rather than Berklee compiling it's own notation in an elitist fashion and presenting it to the world. :) ]