Blues question
 

I'm a beginner when it comes to playing the blues (been playing for 4 months now) and I have a question that arose yesterday when I was playing a simple blues. How come you get a very tasty blues sound when you play C blues scale along with an Fm chord but not when you play, say the F blues scale with the Cm chord? I tried some combinations and the only one that seems to sound "right" is the Fm along with the C blues scale, other combinations just don't sound as clean and bluesy.

[QUOTE=BluesNovice]How come you get a very tasty blues sound when you play C blues scale along with an Fm chord but not when you play, say the F blues scale with the Cm chord?[/QUOTE]

Short answer: just avoid that A flat in the F blues scale during the Cm chord and you'll be okay. ~pimp:

Oh come on now, I need a rational answer so that that I can apply it on all keys and not just the Cm :) Isn't there a logical answer to why only the Fm/C blues scale work together so smoothly while the others don't sound as good?

OK. I'll take a stab at a (much) longer answer, but you really need to start studying some theory...

My short answer simply implied that the flat 6 (A flat in the case of the Cm chord) sticks out like a sore thumb over a minor chord (unless it's just used as a passing tone). Try it. Play a Cm chord and sit on the A flat and see how it "sounds". What does your ear tell you about it?

But first, let's assume that by "blues scale" you mean:
Tonic* -->flat 3rd-->fourth-->fifth-->flat 7th-->Tonic.
* Tonic = first note of the scale/chord, aka "root".
Let's forget about the flatted fifth in the "blues scale" for now. So, a C blues scale would be:
C, E flat, F, G, B flat, C.

Now, let's look at all the notes in the C blues scale, F blues scale, Cm(7) chord and Fm(7) chord. Then we'll look at "common tones" -- and "uncommon tones".

C blues scale: C, E flat, F, G, B flat, C
F blues scale: F, A flat, B flat, C, E flat, F

Cm(7) chord: C, E flat, G, B flat
Fm(7) chord: F, A flat, C, E flat

Some common notes and some uncommon notes, right?
C, E flat and B flat are common to all four scales/chords above.
G, F and A flat are NOT common to all the chords/scales above.

So, it's safe to assume that the common notes will sound "right" no matter which chord is played. Agreed?
Now let's look at the uncommon notes: G, F and A flat.

The G is cool over either chord because it's the fifth of the Cm chord (a chord tone) and the 9th of the Fm chord. The 9th is an "extension" note that adds "color" to the chord. The 9th sounds good over a minor chord. Just try it. Sit on a G over a Fm chord and listen to it's "sound". It has a different sound than that of the chord tones (tonic, 3rd, 5th, 7th).

The F is also cool over either chord since it's the tonic of the Fm chord (a chord tone) and the 11th of the Cm chord. Again, the 11th of a minor chord is an "extension" and "color". Note: the 11th over a Major chord is a different story -- it becomes a "tension" note needing to resolve, either up or down to the 3rd or 5th.

Now, let's look at the A flat. It's fine over the Fm chord because it's the third (a chord tone), but it behaves very differently when played over the Cm chord where it is the flat 6th. It works as a passing tone, but just sit on it and the tension it creates is obvious to the ear.

In your initial post, you said that the F blues scale did not sound right when played over a Cm chord. Maybe that damn A flat had something to do with it. Try playing the F blues scale [I]minus the A flat[/I] and see if it works.

This may have not been any help at all. I'm sure someone could poke a lot of holes in my explaination and say it much better, but I tried.

That explanation does it for me, thanks! I really just wanted to know if the C blues over the Fm is in some way a technique you can apply to other keys as well. But after reading your post and doing some research the sound of the Fm/C Blues combination seems more like an anomaly than a systematic method you could use in other keys.

My, my...

Just look for and "compare" the common tones/notes of the scale and chord to see why and how it works.

[QUOTE=jazzbluescat]My, my...

Just look for and "compare" the common tones/notes of the scale and chord to see why and how it works.[/QUOTE]

Not sure what you meant by the "My, my...", but it's one way to approach the subject of "why does/doesn't this scale work with that chord?". For example, kind of explains why both A minor pentatonic and E minor pentatonic scales sound good over a C major 7 chord. Not Liebman chromatic approach stuff, but he said he just began.

"Fm/C Blues combination seems more like an anomaly than a systematic method you could use in other keys." [BluesNovice]

Unless I'm misunderstanding your intent, BluesNovice, you seem to have a misconception. It seems to be a transposition mistake.

If you like the C blues scale on F-7, then for C-7 you wouldn't look to the F blues scale, but rather the G blues scale, since G is a perfect 5th above C, just as C is a pefect 5th above F.

Putting aside equal temperament issues and the peculiarities of the intonation of particular instruments, C blues over F-7 should sound just the same transposed to other keys. The transposition of the concept "C blues with F-7" is "G blues with C-7", not "F blues with C-7".

So unless I misunderstand what you're saying, if you like C blues over F-7, then for any minor seventh chord, play the blues scale built on the 5th of the minor seventh chord (unless this clashes with the function of the chord in the changes or whatever harmonic or melodic objectives you might have).

I hope this helps.

[QUOTE=tpt1]Not sure what you meant by the "My, my...", but it's one way to approach the subject of "why does/doesn't this scale work with that chord?". For example, kind of explains why both A minor pentatonic and E minor pentatonic scales sound good over a C major 7 chord. Not Liebman chromatic approach stuff, but he said he just began.[/QUOTE]

Please excuse my "My, my..." I was just being cute in expressing my wonderment of your long dissertative reply when a short more concise reply would be less confusing, IMO. Please accept my apology, I have no room to criticize. :light: My "common tones" reply was probably more confusing/over simplified.

[QUOTE=jazzbluescat]Please excuse my "My, my..." I was just being cute in expressing my wonderment of your long dissertative reply when a short more concise reply would be less confusing, IMO. Please accept my apology, I have no room to criticize. :light: My "common tones" reply was probably more confusing/over simplified.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, it was longwinded and probably very confusing. But my first reply was way too short...

[QUOTE=tpt1]Yeah, it was longwinded and probably very confusing. But my first reply was way too short...[/QUOTE]


why not just use a Bb harp on a C blues ?

short enough?

I found the rule that I've been looking for, since I'm a newbie you guys are probably fully aware this method, but there is nothing about it in my blues book.

It's basically that if we look at the I-IV-V pattern in say the key of Em the V would be a B. So you can apply the B blues scale to the Em key. That's it. Same thing with Fm and all other combinations I've tried. But thanks for trying to explain guys, maybe the question was kind of confusing :)