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Thread: Schillinger system

  1. #1
    Piano/fender rhodes/B3 stevieFAN's Avatar
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    Schillinger system

    Some stuff got posted about this the other day, but the guy with all the knowledge D2leo or something never turned up again.
    I know that some of us, myself included were interested, so i've had a bit of a look about, and asked some of my lecturers.
    Here is a link to some texts written by Jeremy Arden, who wrote his thesis on Schillinger.

    http://www.ssm.uk.net/downloads.php
    Dave: Piano 'n rhodes 'n stuff

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    where do you get the handbook ? I only see audio files

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    Steve - Houston TX BWV 1080's Avatar
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    Within the classical tradition, Schillinger's influence is close to nil. George Gershwin studied with him, but how much Schillinger influenced his music is hard to tell.

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    Piano/fender rhodes/B3 stevieFAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ND31 View Post
    where do you get the handbook ? I only see audio files
    Oh yeah, you're right. Well i got jeremy ardens thesis on a file share program (there's no copyrite on it for individual study). I did try to find a link for it on the web but couldn't. I thought those were PDF files based on the thesis.

    I'm sure it must be downloadable somewhere, if anyone can find a link post it. Otherwise get it with your files share program. I searched "Arden schillinger"
    Also, during my searching, i found another AAJ thread about schillinger theory, but there wasn't really any hard info.

    Jeremy arden thesis is best bet.
    Dave
    Dave: Piano 'n rhodes 'n stuff

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    Piano/fender rhodes/B3 stevieFAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BWV 1080 View Post
    Within the classical tradition, Schillinger's influence is close to nil. George Gershwin studied with him, but how much Schillinger influenced his music is hard to tell.
    Here an article about Gershwin’s affiliation with Schillinger written by Vernon Duke!
    http://www.schillingersystem.com/Gersh1.htm
    Dave: Piano 'n rhodes 'n stuff

  6. #6
    Steve - Houston TX BWV 1080's Avatar
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    The whole Schillinger thing is kind of creepy - sort of the Dianetics of music composition.

    The guy was so arrogant he thought his system could improve and correct Beethoven

  7. #7
    Piano/fender rhodes/B3 stevieFAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BWV 1080 View Post

    The guy was so arrogant he thought his system could improve and correct Beethoven
    Haha, yeah this is very true. He did say that about a few composers. Arden kind of takes the pi*s out of him for it in his thesis, but he also makes the point that this doesn't automatically nullify the quality of his theory.
    Miles Davis did and said some dodgy things, but it doesn't mean we can't learn from him musically.
    Dave: Piano 'n rhodes 'n stuff

  8. #8
    Steve - Houston TX BWV 1080's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dogbite View Post
    i guess what i find baffling is that no specifics are provided as to what the "schillinger system" actually is on this website, only vague generalities. ed byrne is very generous with specifics about his methods, and george russell has a fair amount of information on his own site, but can anyone tell us anything about the core of schillinger's system?
    You have to cough up the $$$ for the big secrets of the Schillinger system. I heard at the final level system there is some revelation about an alien named Xenu

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    It's a mystery to me too Doggy....I am enjoying the hell out of your book....Your way of explaining things and your view of the Guitar neck are incredible......You would probably be the one to explain the Schillinger thing...I guess Ed has checked it out...I think that the online course was close to 1000 bucks...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vic J View Post
    It's a mystery to me too Doggy....I am enjoying the hell out of your book....Your way of explaining things and your view of the Guitar neck are incredible......
    Dogbite do you have a book out there??

  11. #11
    Piano/fender rhodes/B3 stevieFAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dogbite View Post
    i don't know why i do this to myself, but i looked at some more posts about schillinger and found this...

    d2leo said:

    "...In the course you took did they talk about (symbol for) sigma(13) Families?
    Type II and Type III harmony is controlled by the sigma(13)
    Sigma (13) families corresponds to 36, 7 pitch scales. These are a manifold of non-identical pitches in the first expansion. The rules of the Type II and III are that you are restricted to using these sigma or some hybrid.

    Time Remembered is in a predominant C5 what I believe there is an exploration sigma (13)XII which is a m9 manifold and Sigma (13) I a Lydian manifold..."

    with all due respect to the practitioners of the schillinger system, if you're going to post something like this without a definition of basic terms, and then you're surprised when experienced players scratch their heads and say "WTF", then y'all need to get out more often...

    please let me know if anyone here understands this stuff. and don't call me narrow minded. i just spent over an hour of my day off searching for exactly what these terms mean, as well as a premise and/or foundation of the system in question and i got zip. i am curious, but even my curiosity has limits.
    Mate i gotta say, i read worse sentences than this in the LCC! I'm finding the arden thesis a hell of a lot easier to read than LCC, dunno what the original schillinger stuff is like. Anyway, people regularly give me funny looks if i'm talking 'normal' theory with another muso. Every system has these big words, i agree, the less the better, but to some degree they're unavoidable. I can email you a copy of the arden thesis if you pm me your email. :-)
    Dave: Piano 'n rhodes 'n stuff

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    Piano/fender rhodes/B3 stevieFAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dogbite View Post
    consider it done. hey, maybe between russell and schillinger, we'll find that unified field theory of physics!

    i agree about the density of language being the crux of the biscuit. that's why i was looking for more on the core of schillinger's premise - if it's simply a language and terminology barrier, i'll give it a go. for the record, russell's 1959 edition of LCC was quite a bit more bite-sized in its terminology. in a way, they're totally different texts.

    but that post by d2leo had me thinking i was cast in the upcoming star trek movie - i'm hoping to find the arden thesis more comprehensible.
    i found a link :-)
    http://www.ssm.uk.net/Schillinger_Theory.pdf
    Dave: Piano 'n rhodes 'n stuff

  13. #13
    Piano/fender rhodes/B3 stevieFAN's Avatar
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    This was the post that got me interested:

    the chief method of analysis in the tune is to look at the root motion first and foremost among the constant structure chords and determine which kind of pattern is being used. There are several main patterns that can be used

    The "Theory of Symmetric Harmony" is taught at Berklee as "Multi-tonic systems," which isn't to be confused with the functional multi-tonic systems used by Coltrane. Basically, you can divide the octave (12 tones) into 6 parts (intervals of a major 2nd), 4 parts (intervals of a minor third), 3 parts (intervals of a major 3rd) and 2 parts (intervals of a tritone). Whenever the root motion in a constant structure moves by a constant pattern in one of these intervals, and completes the cycle - or implies that the cycle is complete in some way - your ear recognizes this cyclic pattern in the root motion and that is how coherance is attained in the harmony. Time Remembered has some inkling of this - the chords starting on the 17th measure could represent a sort of multitonic system, but the A-7 and C-7 chords are switched. The 20th measure also could represent a multi-tonic system with some mixed structure - the maj7 structure interrupts the minor 7th chord progression.

    The "Cycle Root Movement" is taught at Berklee basically the same, from what I can tell. Whenever you have a pattern of root movement in a constant structure system that doesn't divide the octave into equal parts, you have what Berklee calls a "constant cycle" progression. Time Remebered has a bunch of "cycle 5 (or cycle 4)" progression, or root movement in fifths. You can also have cycle 2 and cycle 3, so long as the pattern doesn't create an octave - then it would be a multi-tonic system.

    There are a few others like "patterned" root motion, which takes a two or three chord cell and moves it around according to the parameters of the other two concepts (for example, F-7 G-7 | Ab-7 Bb-7 | B-7 C#-7 using cycle two, or Cmaj7 Dbmaj7 | Abmaj7 Amaj7 |Emaj7 Fmaj7 using a three-tonic system). Woody Shaw was a really big fan of using this sort of device in his tunes. The chords in the 17th measure of Time Remembered could represent this concept as alternative to the multi-tonic idea, (Eb-7 to A-7 is a tritone, then C-7 to F#-7 is a tritone). This is how Berklee explains the first four measures too, a B-7 to Cmaj7 chord, and then the retrograde of that progression at a new pitch level, Fmaj7 to E-7. That I find a little hard to agree with, though.
    Dave: Piano 'n rhodes 'n stuff

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    Guitarist JohnHorne's Avatar
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    Thanks for this. i picked up an older text on the Schillinger System from the library a while ago but I didn't get to far with it. It looks like approaching the ideas via a third party might be a good step toward understanding the basic concepts.

    Let's keep the discussion open...
    J

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    Piano/fender rhodes/B3 stevieFAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnHorne View Post
    Thanks for this. i picked up an older text on the Schillinger System from the library a while ago but I didn't get to far with it. It looks like approaching the ideas via a third party might be a good step toward understanding the basic concepts.

    Let's keep the discussion open...
    J
    Yeah, the thesis is easier, although to be honest, i'm struggling with that as well. I don't naturally learn well from books, my brain seems much better suited to explanation then Q&A form of learning.
    Also, i'm only really interested in the harmony aspects in there, so in trying to skip' i might be missing stuff.
    Well if dog get's his head round it, i'll just fire off some questions at him :-)

    P.S respect on the book, dog! Just like you too write a book then be too humble to mention it to any one!
    Dave: Piano 'n rhodes 'n stuff

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