Results 1 to 15 of 15

Thread: Difference between hard bop and post bop?

  1. #1
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    1

    Difference between hard bop and post bop?

    I am classifying my jazz library into more specific genres and was wondering if someone could help shed a little light into the difference between hard bop and post bop. Googling seemed to pull up similar descriptions, and similar artists. Thanks all!

  2. #2
    Registered User mikelz777's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    The upper midwest.
    Posts
    2,058
    Per AllMusic.com

    Bop
    Also known as bebop, Bop was a radical new music that developed gradually in the early '40s and exploded in 1945. The main difference between bop and swing is that the soloists engaged in chordal (rather than melodic) improvisation, often discarding the melody altogether after the first chorus and using the chords as the basis for the solo. Ensembles tended to be unisons, most jazz groups were under seven pieces, and the soloist was free to get as adventurous as possible as long as the overall improvisation fit into the chord structure. Since the virtuoso musicians were getting away from using the melodies as the basis for their solos (leading some listeners to ask "Where's the melody?") and some of the tempos were very fast, bop divorced itself from popular music and a dancing audience, uplifting jazz to an art music but cutting deeply into its potential commercial success. Ironically the once-radical bebop style has become the foundation for all of the innovations that followed and now can be almost thought of as establishment music. Among its key innovators were altoist Charlie Parker, trumpeter Dizzy Gillespie, pianist Bud Powell, drummer Max Roach, and pianist/composer Thelonious Monk.


    Post-Bop
    It has become increasingly difficult to categorize modern jazz. A large segment of the music does not fit into any historical style; it is not as rock-oriented as fusion or as free as avant garde. Starting with the rise of Wynton Marsalis in 1979, a whole generation of younger players chose to play an updated variety of hard bop that was also influenced by the mid-'60s' Miles Davis Quintet and aspects of free jazz. Since this music (which often features complex chordal improvisation) has become the norm for jazz in the 1990s, the terms modern mainstream or Post-Bop are used for everything from Wallace Roney to John Scofield, and symbolize the eclectic scene as jazz enters its second century.

    It sounds like a tough task to categorize music this way when the distinction is so fine and vague. You might have better luck broadening your categories if you're organizing your CDs this way.

  3. #3
    musician Jeff Smith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    fringes of the jazz wasteland
    Posts
    1,662
    Labels. People want them, even when nobody can seem to agree on the definitions. Bop or bebop just got to be too much. Just playing the crazy heads at the tempos that were going on was a challenge, let alone trying to improvise. It found itself in such a rut that musicians had to re-examine the tempos, melodies and number of chord changes involved to make jazz more musical again, not just the technical competition that bop had become. Hard-bop was the result, allowing a little more feeling back into the music.

    Post-bop includes hard bop, modal, cool, modern, and just about everything that has happened since bebop. That would make hard bop a sub-genre of post-bop. I'm sure that just as many folks would disagree with this as agree. Labels....
    Last edited by Jeff Smith; August 11th, 2009 at 04:34 PM. Reason: spelling

  4. #4
    Compose /Arranger / Jazz Prod. Phil Kelly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Bellingham WA
    Posts
    5,065
    My subjective judgement tells me that "post bop" is largely the younger generation that chooses to expand the tradition as established by the earlier masters ( Jazz Messengers ,Brown /Roach, Johnny Griffin , Hank Mobley , Sonny Stitt et al. ) and including more contemporary harmonic and rhythmic practices in the process.

    Some players that might fit in this niche ( at least some of the time ) include:
    Roy Hardgrove, Vincent Herring, Wallace Roney, Wayne Shorter, Greg Osby, Branford Marsalis,
    Terence Blanchard et al.

    For me, the dividing line between " hard and "post" sorta begins with Miles
    60s Quintet - Hancock /Williams /Carter /Shorter
    Swing ..or I'll kill you ( Bill Potts )
    RIP

  5. #5
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    761
    Coming from at least a drummer's perspective post-bop is when broken time starting coming out. Instead of ding-ding-da-ding, hats on 2 and 4 and a feathered bass drum, many drummers would play what's known as "broken time".

    http://www.freejazzinstitute.org/sho...5630_Zack_Selk

    An example of strict time, and one of broken.

    Not all post bop used broken time all the time, but that's when it came out. Also, song structures became looser.

  6. #6
    Registered User senorblues's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    728
    I don't like labels much either but I like this one. When I think of hard bop I think of Wes Montgomery, Lee Morgan and Horace Silver and lots more of the great music of the late 50's and early 60's. It sometimes has a bluesey, funky or soulfull feel but it can have other more complex changes too.

  7. #7
    Compose /Arranger / Jazz Prod. Phil Kelly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Bellingham WA
    Posts
    5,065
    Quote Originally Posted by senorblues View Post
    I don't like labels much either but I like this one. When I think of hard bop I think of Wes Montgomery, Lee Morgan and Horace Silver and lots more of the great music of the late 50's and early 60's. It sometimes has a bluesey, funky or soulfull feel but it can have other more complex changes too.
    You've put your finger on one of the real defining characteristics of the
    "hard" bop era ...memorable coherent melodies - particularly in the case of Horace Silver, Lee Morgan ,Benny Golson and others of that period. Early bebop was also somewhat melodic ,but more virtuoso -ish in quality.

    Again , the dividing line for me is Miles 50s Quintet. This was when the more angular odd phrased themes of Wayne Shorter and others became the prevalent style. Some guys like Joe Zawinul worked "both sides of the fence"
    melodically -writing accessible tunes like "Mercy Mercy" and "Birdland" as well as his more obstruse ouevre.
    Swing ..or I'll kill you ( Bill Potts )
    RIP

  8. #8
    Registered User senorblues's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    728
    You made a great point Phil about Benny Golson and . Killer Joe is an icon of that age and also Along Came Betty. The Molodies of Miles along with Bill Evans, Blue in Green is another great example. Lee Morgan's "Ceora' and the way he sort of reharmanized you go to my head are other examples of rich melodic content of the hard bop period

  9. #9
    Dressing Like a Fan Since 1997 1/2 Baked, Not Fried's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Boise
    Posts
    2,052
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Smith View Post
    Post-bop includes hard bop, modal, cool, modern, and just about everything that has happened since bebop. That would make hard bop a sub-genre of post-bop. I'm sure that just as many folks would disagree with this as agree. Labels....
    That actually makes a lot of sense, although I always thought of “post-bop” as the style (or styles) that emerged from/after hard bop, i.e., beginning around the early ‘60’s or so. I.e., guys starting to push the envelope, doing different things with time, adding modal themes, playing a bit outside, etc. Coltrane at the Village Vanguard, Joe Henderson’s In-N-Out or Inner Urge, Oliver Nelson’s Blues and the Abstract Truth, early ‘60’s Mingus, early Andrew Hill, etc. Mid-‘60’s Freddie Hubbard. Miles Davis’ ESP (and the rest of his mid-late ‘60’s output). Perhaps even the difference between Blakey before and after Wayne Shorter, or Horace Silver pre/post Henderson/Shaw.

    I guess I also view “bebop” and “hard bop” as related, but different, too, hard bop emerging from bebop, slowing down some of the tempos, adding a bit more blues and soul, etc. Thus, quintessential bebop would be, to me, Bird/Diz, circa 1945. Hard bop: Art Blakey & the Jazz Messengers, cir. 1955. Post bop: Miles’ 2nd quintet, cir. 1965. No longer bop: Ornette/Cecil Taylor/Miles post 1969, etc.

    I'm not a musician, though, so take all this with a grain of salt. Just the perceptions of a fan. 'Interesting to read others’ perceptions, though, as it appears there may be no true concensus on all this.
    I think there are only three things America will be known for 2,000 years from now when they study this civilization: the Constitution, jazz music and baseball. Gerald Early 1952–, American Author

  10. #10
    Registered User Brasko's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    In the middle of nowhere
    Posts
    52
    Labels are always artificial constructs, but as I see it "hard bop" refers to the more soulful, intense music that appeared on the East Cost after the be bop revolution (people like Max Roach, Lee Morgan, Art Blakey...) in a clear contrast with the "cool" of the West Coast.
    "Post bop" (I also have heard "neo hard bop") is the renaissance that jazz experienced in the 90's, after the whole rock-jazz movement of the late 70s and 80s (not a big fan, sorry) evaporated.
    The term "hard bop" has some merit to it. The term "Post bop" has none, as far as I am concerned; it includes too many artists with too many different styles and tendencies.
    "It's that kind of tune, you know?"
    Chet Baker

  11. #11
    Registered User Johnny Murgatroyd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    852
    Labels are not very precise in jazz, but useful for extreme beginners.

    Hard Bop I always understood to be basically the consensus reached in jazz about the time that Charlie Parker died in 1955. The style broadened the possible emotional range of bebop but is technically pretty much the same. Thus it covers the funky Art Blakey style as well as the Miles Davis "ballad" style in the 50s.

    Postbop is much harder to define. This isn't really one style of jazz any more, but covers all new stuff in jazz based on the hard bop consensus, like modalism and the avant garde.

  12. #12
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    3

    Re:Difference between hard bop and post bop?

    Hi LBMan,

    Well,The main differences between hard bop and bop are that the melodies tend to be simpler and often more "soulful," the rhythm section is usually looser with the bassist not as tightly confined to playing four-beats-to-the-bar as in bop, a gospel influence is felt in some of the music and quite often the saxophonists and pianists sound as if they were quite familiar with early rhythm and blues. Since the prime time period of hard bop (1955-70) was a decade later than bop, these differences were a logical evolution and one can think of hard bop as bop of the 50's and 60's. By the early '60s, the music had already splintered into a number of different styles, notably Modal Jazz, Post-Bop and Soul-Jazz. By the second half of the 1960's, the influence of the avant-garde was being felt and some of the more adventurous performances of the hard bop stylists fell somewhere between the two styles. With the rise of fusion and the sale of Blue Note in the late 1960's, the style fell upon hard times although it was revived to a certain extent in the 1980's. Much of the music performed by the so-called Young Lions during the latter decade can be said to play Modern Mainstream although some groups have kept the 1960's idiom alive.

    Thanks

  13. #13
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Southern Illinois
    Posts
    12
    The transition from BeBop to Hard Bop might have had something to do with the development of the LP record. Although it BeBop developed in part during the WWII recording band, it seems to be captured by frenetic 78 rpm sides cramming all that playing into 3 minutes. Stretching out over 10-minute tracks, like classic Blue Note hard bop LPs by Sonny Clark and Lee Morgan, seemed to let everybody relax.

    The bluesy Hard Bop kind of became Soul Jazz and the intellectual direction became mid-60s New Thing (Shorter, Hutcherson, Andrew Hill, Joe Henderson etc). Post-Bop, as previously noted, might be the modern (last 20 years) continuance of the semi-free New Thing?

  14. #14
    Registered User justHerb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    1,360
    I applaud your efforts, but just file everything alphabetically by artist and don't worry about labels...

  15. #15
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    57
    Quote Originally Posted by Zack Selk View Post
    Coming from at least a drummer's perspective post-bop is when broken time starting coming out. Instead of ding-ding-da-ding, hats on 2 and 4 and a feathered bass drum, many drummers would play what's known as "broken time".

    http://www.freejazzinstitute.org/sho...5630_Zack_Selk

    An example of strict time, and one of broken.

    Not all post bop used broken time all the time, but that's when it came out. Also, song structures became looser.
    What he said. Funny how horn players & guitarists never seem to think about the drummer's side of it. It's all chords and modes....LOL. It was a pretty dramatic difference going from swung time to broken eights. There seemed to be an outright rejection of all things swing starting in the 1960s.

    Anyway, I thought post-bop referred to that period, and neo-bop referred to the revival of bop by Marsalis et al.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  




Support the All About Jazz website and forum. Make a donation today!



Download the Jazz Near You iOS app

Download the Jazz Near You iOS app - Free!

Never miss another jazz concert again! Jazz Near You is a simple yet powerful way for fans to discover who is playing where and when. Access local jazz events by date, by distance, by venue, by musician or by festival; map to venues, set reminders, and get detailed information about musicians. Jazz Near You is your complete guide to jazz music near you! Download it now.



Visit All About Jazz at Twitter   Twitter Visit All About Jazz at Facebook   Facebook Use the All About Jazz content widgets on your website or blog   Widgets Subscribe to the All About Jazz RSS feeds   Feeds


All About Jazz | Jazz Near You | Jazz Musician Directory | Jazz News | Jazz Photo Gallery