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Thread: hard bop vs bebop...

  1. #1
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    hard bop vs bebop...

    Can someone point me to a good article, discussion, or even your own thoughts on what constitutes the difference between these 2 genres, specifically with respect to soloing. Obviously the simpler straight ahead grooves and progressions influenced the hard boppers style, but what else did they drop from the bebop bag? Were they less angular or obtusely syncopated? Were they bluesier? Did they prefer certain tunes to others, eg, did rhythm changes become less popular? What about patterns, formulas or devices? Which new ideas were incorporated into lines? When did MM modes get introduced?

    And lastly, who do you think were the quintessential hard boppers? Not necessarily your faves, but who helped "write the book". I know, pretty broad questions, but.....

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    two words:

    horace silver

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    but seriously

    the wiki article is pretty good:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_bop

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    and

    art blakey
    clifford brown
    benny golson (jazztet)
    miles (workin'-steamin'-cookin'-relaxin')
    sonny rollins
    bobby timmons
    sonny clark
    adderleys
    hank mobley
    lee morgan
    harold land
    kenny dorham
    lou donaldson
    donald byrd/gigi gryce
    'trane (blue train, all prestige recordings)
    curtis counce
    grant green
    jimmy smith
    kenny burrell
    ...and wes, of course

  5. #5
    AAJ's Spammer Exterminator Tenorman's Avatar
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    I don't often reply to these as I view descriptives as a general guidance only. I would really only use such a description when someone said that they did not know the artist I was talking about and wanted to know what type of music they played. Beyond that, I find little use for description. It won't restrict my listening

    From Charlie Parker to the Pasadena Roof Orchestra. From Anita O'Day to Julie London. They are all in my collection get listened to on a regular basis.

    I have a label for that which is just as non-specific as every other music descriptive label It's called "Music that I like" I know what I mean -- no-one else does

    Birth Controller to the Jazz Community. (click on the underlined text for more information)

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by randalljazz View Post
    art blakey
    clifford brown
    benny golson (jazztet)
    miles (workin'-steamin'-cookin'-relaxin')
    sonny rollins
    bobby timmons
    sonny clark
    adderleys
    hank mobley
    lee morgan
    harold land
    kenny dorham
    lou donaldson
    donald byrd/gigi gryce
    'trane (blue train, all prestige recordings)
    curtis counce
    grant green
    jimmy smith
    kenny burrell
    ...and wes, of course
    nice list, although lou donaldson seems to me more associated with the hallmarks of bebop whereas someone like Jackie Maclean or Johnny Griffin shed their early bop sound for more "hard"ness, I dunno...

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    sure, lots of other important players in that fertile time. for donaldson, i was thinking of



    http://www.amazon.com/Blues-Walk-Lou.../dp/B000005H56

    which is hard bop to my ears, from the title track on (amazon editorial blurb notwithstanding)...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNR7822K_40

    mclean's work with sonny clark is surely essential hardbop...

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    OK, and how about the 2 Sonnys, Stitt and Rollins. Wouldn't they be equally important? If Eternal Triangle ain't a Hard Bop tour de force, then I really have no clue..... EDIT: just realised you had Rollins in there..... Which Curtis Counce album could you recommend?

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    http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Studi...t_mus_ep_dpi_1

    some players (stitt) do blur the lines, others seem timeless (getz, manne, sims)...so many great players...

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    Yep, sounds like I'd like it, cheers. So does anyone have anything to say about the difference in the soloists approach to soloing when comparing bebop to bop?

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    Is the Coltrane material from 57 to the early 60's considered hard bop? If not, then what is it considered? Thanks!!

  12. #12
    Registered User gjudd's Avatar
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    hard bop: more structure, less 'frenzy'?

    I agree with whoever said labels don't work so well as you'd like... ;-)

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    I'm just beginning to actually take this question seriously, as I've long had the mentality that "labels are for marketers who want to sell something and may or may not care about the music," but I just had a flash of some type of realization that this case it is simply a verbal label to enable one to discuss sub-genres within the types of Jazz, and could be very useful. Coming from the rock school, I was really into what many others and myself would easily label "Hard Rock" so it comes with a fresh perspective (some 10+ years later) after the fact. Then when you couple the further genre-twisting that began with the Jazz-Rock and the Fusion era, it makes me wonder about the descriptive words concepts behind the styles.

  14. #14
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    There is a "practical" reason to understand music labels/classifications. Before I hit a club, if I want to find out beforehand if a performer is playing a style of jazz I like, it's nice to have a word or two that generally describes their style. Same with having conversations with people about what style of jazz is liked. Or if you are looking for music you like in a store or reading an article that describes a music/artist style, it's nice to understand the definitions used. I've noticed there are a lot of great people into jazz (especially in this forum), but there are also some snobs that put their nose in the air if they don't like the question being asked. :-)

  15. #15
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    For Pete's sake! Let's not get into a discussion about the validity of naming sub genres! I'll make the question easier, when comparing players like Charlie Parker from the 40's and Golson/Griffin/Rollins/Adderley etc from the late 50's, what do you think are the major differences in the soloist's approach? Melodically, harmonically, rhythmically etc... Would love some specifics if you can share some. Thanks.

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