Giant Steps

[xtombronx]

I'm working on learning Giant Steps by John Coltrane. I realize this is a difficult piece, but I was wondering if somebody could point in the right direction to finding resources to help me get my brain wrapped around the whole Hard-Bop style. After that, of course, I need to learn to play it, and I have some sheet music to help me, but I want to understand the thinking behind this music. Thanks

[Jakeweiser]

this isn't "hard bop" meaning the genre of Jazz... it's hard Bebop.. so i guess it's a form of Hard Bop...

Giant Steps is difficult mainly because of the tempo ppl play it at and that daunts them. Working on this progression slowly at first really makes a huge difference. I get my students to practice the shifts in harmony rubato at first so that they can get comfortable with the mechanical and more importantly Aural key center shifts. Your typical resolutions no longer work as readily on Giant Steps and therefore you sort of have to relearn what you know just a little bit.

Without knowing what you already know it's difficult to get too deep into this chord progression. Some more specific questions would help everyone in helping you.

[xtombronx]

Thanks! Okay, first of all, if this is not Hard-Bop, and knowing how hard it is to explain the difference between types of jazz, could somebody maybe tell me the name of a really classic Hard-Bop song? So I can understand the difference, at least by ear.

I'll be sure to work on it slowly at first, thats how I start practicing most of the harder songs I play. Some specific questions I have are, is Coltrane following any sort of scale when playing this? If so, which one(s) and how/why does he switch between them when he does? Is there any kind of pattern he follows when playing this? Is there any patter between the chord progression that accompanies the solo? If so, what kind of pattern, and how will that help me gain a better understanding of the music genre as a whole and this specific song? Would it benefit me if all these questions were answered and I applied my newfound knowledge to playing it?

Please, don't assume that I know 'the basics' of this. I might, but I also might not, I have some gaps in my education and would really appreciate it if, whoever is answering these, would throw in a couple extra details as they see fit. Thanks so much!

[Jorge_Rubiales]

What you're asking for is an analysis of the tune, and if i'm not mistaken, there must be at least one in this same forum

[jazz oud]

xtombronx,

based on your questions, I think you might want to hold of on this particular tune for while and work on more standard-type progressions. Do you have a teacher who's proficient in jazz? I don't think a few suggestions on an online forum are going to get you where you need to go.

here are the answers to your questions:

is Coltrane following any sort of scale when playing this? If so, which one(s) and how/why does he switch between them when he does?

The song moves through in three keys, and the lines Coltrane plays are related to the key he's in at the time. The keys are Eb, G, and B. I wouldn't say he's "following" a scale, though. His ideas are based more on each particular chord at that point in the progression, with occasionally scalar passages. So he switches when the chord/key changes.

Is there any kind of pattern he follows when playing this? Is there any patter between the chord progression that accompanies the solo?

The chord progression for the solo is the same as it is for the melody. The movement of the chords is the basis for his lines; he changes where the chords change.
He uses a number of patterns to outline the chords, mainly targeting chord tones (1, 3, or 5) on beats one and three (where the chords change).

how will that help me gain a better understanding of the music genre as a whole and this specific song? Would it benefit me if all these questions were answered and I applied my newfound knowledge to playing it?

These questions are too broad to be answered like this.
What will benefit you in playing this tune:
-learning to play in the keys of B, Eb, and G
-learning all the arpeggios of all the chords in the tune
-learning to connect the chord tones of one chord to the chord tones of the following chord with melodically convincing lines
-learning some of Coltrane's lines
-singing the root movement of the chords
-singing the guide-tone (3rd and 7th) motion of the chords

A teacher can help you work on all those things.

hope this helps.

[randalljazz]

Originally Posted by xtombronx

Thanks! Okay, first of all, if this is not Hard-Bop, and knowing how hard it is to explain the difference between types of jazz, could somebody maybe tell me the name of a really classic Hard-Bop song? So I can understand the difference, at least by ear.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vglFMb9zUo

http://www.last.fm/music/Horace+Silver/_/Strollin%27

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tg8E5iRADI8

[xtombronx]

Thanks, I'll take that advice to heart... However, I have a couple more questions concerning your answers.

I think you might want to hold of on this particular tune for while and work on more standard-type progressions. Do you have a teacher who's proficient in jazz? I don't think a few suggestions on an online forum are going to get you where you need to go.

If you say I should hold off, then I agree, but do you maybe have some suggestions as to what some good "standard-type progression" songs would be? I do have a very good teacher, but he instructs the whole band. I don't have a private instructor at my disposal. Would you suggest getting one?

Thanks again for all the help, I appreciate it ^_^

[guitarjazz]

An entire book about GS:
http://www.amazon.com/Diorio-Giant-S...7216190&sr=8-1

BTW There was a nice workshop in Downbeat not too long ago by Michel Camilo about the benefits of practicing Giant Steps.

[DJ Soupalognon]

Here is my trick on Giant Steps 'like' tunes.

All of which that was mentioned before is something I do. But I have found another way to go through the changes and it works pretty well.

BMaj7 D7, GMaj7 Bb7, EbMaj7

It's basically IMaj7 #Idim7 then a new IMaj7 #Idim7 then a new IMaj7

So I treat all of them just like the first measures of any Rhythm change in any key. The only thing that is different is the resolution of the #Idim7... doesn't go to II-7

It works with every Coltrane changes tune. Kind of neat, I think.

You can't only do that, but it's one effective easy way to go through those changes.

Hope it helped!

[Acci]

Originally Posted by xtombronx

If you say I should hold off, then I agree, but do you maybe have some suggestions as to what some good "standard-type progression" songs would be? I do have a very good teacher, but he instructs the whole band. I don't have a private instructor at my disposal. Would you suggest getting one?

Thanks again for all the help, I appreciate it ^_^

All the things you are

Autumn Leaves

Someday my prince will come

Alone Together

Those are some good standards.

Also, three things

1. Do a search in this forum for Giant Steps threads - there are a lot of them!

2. The pattern is basically maj7 chord, up a m3 to a dominant, up a fourth to a maj7, up a m3 to a dominant, up a fourth to a maj7. then a ii V to a chord a major third above that last major7, then the same cycle that I just wrote starting on this new chord. Then it just keeps going up in major thirds, leading to each new key with a ii V. When you get to the sixteenth bar the pattern is broken and there's a ii V to the first chord of the tune. (somebody please correct any typos in that, I haven't had my coffee yet)

3. Something that hasn't been mentioned, that you kind of asked about, is that Coltrane used a lot of digital patterns to get through this tune. Something you could try doing is going "1,2,3,5" on every maj7 chord and "1,b3,4,5" on every m7 chord for the whole tune, then try mixing that up by going 5321 and 54b31, then 5123, 51b34, etc. In that original solo there are a lot of patterns like this. In fact on the dominant chords he often just plays a straight arpeggio of the triad.

[princeplanet]

Giant Steps huh?... just do it like this!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWOG_...eature=related

[scooby]

I like the suggestions that pianist David Berkman provides in his book "The Jazz Musician's Guide to Creative Practicing." You can get more info about the book at his website: http://www.davidberkman.com/ or at http://www.shermusic.com/berkman.htm

The book comes with a CD. On that CD there is a solo version of Giant Steps by tenor saxophonist Joel Frahm. I loved the solo so much that I transcribed it. You can grab the transcription from my website and get some ideas from how Joel approaches it: http://scooby-sax.com/transcriptions.aspx

-- Scooby

[Acci]

Originally Posted by princeplanet

Giant Steps huh?... just do it like this!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWOG_...eature=related

I don't get whether you're showing this clip as a good example or a bad example!

[guitarjazz]

In audio clip#2 John Coltrane himself talks about Giant Steps:
http://johncoltrane.com/audioclips.html

[princeplanet]

Originally Posted by Acci

I don't get whether you're showing this clip as a good example or a bad example!

You're obviously not a pianist or you'd know the answer to that.