Question for the drummers about a cymbal

[Radar]

Ok I was in my local Mom and Pop music store and saw an old Zildian made in Istanbul 18" thin crash sitting on an old beat up slingerland set. I played it a little and it had a really warm washy sound that I really liked, and it actually didn't have a bad ride sound either. I asked the store owner how much he says $100.00. I take off the felt washer to find it is badly Keyholed and has two small cracks radiating out from the Keyhole. Now I know that Istanbul made Zildian's in good condition are a sought after cymbals, but would you pay $100.00 for a cymbal that is cracked and most probably these cracks are going to spread if not sooner then later. Seems like a risky investment to me, but it is one very sweet sounding cymbal. So was I right to take a pass on this one or should I go back tomorrow and snatch it up. If it had only been keyholed I would have bought it but the cracks worry me.

PS: I'm not into collecting instruments, so if I were to get this it would be to play.

[Zack Selk]

Usually keyholes aren't THAT big of a deal. Cracks are another story, as they spread...

[obrienslalom]

I had a cymbal that had some keyhole damage (and about a 1/4 inch chip around the hole). I probably have about 5 years of solid play on that thing and the cracks haven't seem to spread. Granted, this was a 20" ride so things weren't as hard hitting as a crash would have been. It also probably depends how loose you keep your cymbals, angle, etc.

As far as Istanbul goes, I don't remember the details, but I remember a whole thing going around trying to decipher how valuable they are. Might be worth the research if you think you're finding a diamond in the rough based on that.

My suggestion: If you like the sound of the cymbal, and it's not a huge financial setback, go for it. I know it's hard to pull the trigger when you can't get a warm and fuzzy, but it's so difficult sometimes to find a sound you like. Chances are you'll get some good time out of it still.

[Jay Norem]

You're looking at a dead cymbal. Too bad, it sounds like it was once a real beauty. But it's not worth $100.00, it really isn't worth $1.00.

[Radar]

Thanks for the input gentlemen, I think it's a little too risky to bet on these cracks not spreading. Too bad because it really is a sweat sounding cymbal.

[obrienslalom]

Originally Posted by Radar

Thanks for the input gentlemen, I think it's a little too risky to bet on these cracks not spreading. Too bad because it really is a sweat sounding cymbal.

If it is truly a 'Mom and Pop' shop, you might call and mention your concerns about the damage. Never know how far places like that are willing to budge just to get some type of sale (normally depends how they got the cymbal in the first place). If you liked the sound of it today, might be worth a shot giving a call.

[Marcello]

I remember Mel Lewis' cracked cymbal. I looked around and found this on http://www.cymbalholic.com/forums/index.php:

Hey,
Thought this might be interesting to share. I emailed my former teacher, John Riley, a few weeks/months back to ask about Mel Lewis's famous cymbal, the old A with all the cuts. I figured since John now holds the drum chair of Mel's old gig, he'd be the guy to ask about this subject. Turns out that Danny Gottlieb is now the proud owner of this specific cymbal. Mr. Riley was nice enough to go to the trouble of asking Mr. Gottlieb about it and I eventually got a response. I thank both gentlemen immensely!

Here's what he said: (excerpts of Mr. Gottlieb's email via Mr. Riley):

"Anyway.. you asked about Mel's cymbal.... This is a cymbal that Mel told me about when I first met him in 69-70. He said it was his favorite cymbal of all time, and that he only (at that point) used it for special projects, as it was cracking... It's a 20 inch 50's A, with TWO chunks of metal cut out... from the left top and right top of the cymbal. The cuts are about 1 inch deep, and maybe 2 inches long, about 6 inches apart and were done to stop cracking. Mel said that the cymbal was ok before, but so much better with the cuts. I guess the "stress' points were taken out and it has an unbelievable low tone when you hit it on the side. There are two rivits, next to each other (copper), on the right side. And it is cracking again, under one of the cuts. I get nervous to carry it , let alone play it.

When you first hit the cymbal, it sounds really weird-dark, trashy, a little on the dead side, and it takes a minute to get used to it. But, when you play it for a while it (at least for me) becomes hypnotic, and it just has some magical high stick sound, and low growl sound with no middle range. It just seems to blend really well with acoustic instruments.

I have played it with my heavy , weird, nylon tip Hot Sticks, but it seems to sound the best with thin, wood tip sticks (Mel's model). I think Mel used this on all of the Terry Gibbs big band recordings, on Maynard Ferguson's The Blues Roar", Art Pepper plus 11, and some Thad and Mel recordings. The one DVD I know about where you can actually see Mel play the cymbal, is on a DCI drum solo collection, where Mel plays with Shorty Rogers. I have also seen it in pictures (there is a classic shot with Gene Krupa and Lionel Hampton from a TV show , with Gerry Mulligan (maybe even Buddy Rich), and you can see Mel in the house band in the back, and the outline of the cymbal with the cuts.

I purchased it, along with some other cymbals, from Doris, shortly after Mel passed away. As I remembered him taking about that specific cymbal, I wanted it as he had mentioned it specifically to me, and I knew it was special to him. The only other cymbal in the bag with this one, was a 16 inch (I think 50's) K, and I have that one as well. It sounds like it was also used on Art Pepper plus 11, but I can't be sure.

I know Mel mentions it in his cover story with Rick Mattingly for Modern Drummer, and I think he says Buddy called this cymbal 'one of the greatest in the world". Of course it was Mel's touch that made it sound so great. I took it to Zildjian a few years ago, to see if they could duplicate it, and I left it there for a few months. Joe (assistant to Paul Francis) took it on as a project and made some prototypes.The cymbals he made were not really close to the sound of the Mel cymbal, but they are great in their own way. I think he took Peter Erskine's 20 left side ride, thinned it down, and lathed it. He made some beautiful, thin, washy dark rides... but nothing like Mel's."


I hope everyone finds this as informative and interesting as I did. It's unbelievably priceless information for me. It of course would be amazing to have some more detailed information on the subject, such as a gram weight, pictures, and a soundfile. But, I'm sure Mr. Gottlieb has better things to do.

In any case, it's an amazing cymbal, which I've always been in love with. I've actually found the Istanbul Agop SE Jazz Ride's have quite a similar sound. Like Danny said, a high stick sound with no middle range. I've got some thoughts on this statement, but would like to hear what other's think first.

If you don't know much about this cymbal, I'd suggest you check youtube and search for "Gerry Mulligan Ben Webster". There are some great videos there of Mel with these musicians on the Dinah Shore show. You can see a pretty good outline of the cuts of this cymbal at that time (1959). The recording of the same group (Gerry Mulligan meets Ben Webster, 1959) is also a great recording and one of the best recorded examples of this particular cymbal that I've found.

[obrienslalom]

Originally Posted by Marcello

In any case, it's an amazing cymbal, which I've always been in love with. I've actually found the Istanbul Agop SE Jazz Ride's have quite a similar sound. Like Danny said, a high stick sound with no middle range. I've got some thoughts on this statement, but would like to hear what other's think first.

This is interesting, I'll have to spend some more time trying to find the recordings you're talking about and give it a listen. As it relates to the OP, I think this exemplifies the fact that when you fall in love with a sound, just go for it (but falling in love is very different than sounding pretty good).

I have a 10" splash on my kit that has a crack from about half the radius out from the center and wraps around half the cymbal. I still really like the sound out it (and it's in no way strange, there is no rubbing or trashy sounds introduced). You never know.