GUITARISTS ONLY! - Rootless Jazz Guitar Voicings

[Jeff Brent]

Originally Posted by jazz oud

Well, it took me a while to look through all 40(!) pages, but here are the ones I noticed:
P.2 Bbm9 and Eb13 both have m9 intervals between C and Db
P.8 Fm9 and Bb13 both have m9 intervals between G and Ab
p.12 Bbm9 and Eb13b9 have m9s between C and Db

Also:
p.17 seems to have a typo, I think it's Bbm9/Db? The chord diagram has a Gb, it should be on the 4th string instead of the 3rd.

P.22 has a typo, it should read Ebm9/Gb, the diagram is right, though.

p.34 has a typo, it should read Bbm9/Db

p.37 has a typo, it should read F#m9/C#

p.40 has a typo, it should read Bbm9/Db

Interestingly, some of the ones I use most often are missing entirely . . . I guess those will have to stay secret for now.

Oooooh, the "Secret Jazz Oud" voicings. Have you been holding out on us?

I went through and fixed the typos. Once again thanks!


The one p.12 that you mention, I'm going to leave. I think that Eb13b9/C voicing is pretty cool ...

As regards the one on p.17, you just missed the indication that the fingering was based off 4th fret.

Originally Posted by pele_trane

Jeff,

Began working through your stuff--on page 2, the AbM9/Bb chord has the root in the chord--from L to R the notes are Bb Eb Ab C G or 9-5-R-3-7. Did you intend to skip the 3rd string or keep the R? I assume you want the Root in that chord, then??

It seems like more trouble than it's worth to try to get that Ab out of that chord, and it doesn't hurt anything to leave it in, so ...

There are a couple of other chords in there that have a root thrown in (and always for the same reason).

[jazz oud]

Originally Posted by Jeff Brent

Oooooh, the "Secret Jazz Oud" voicings. Have you been holding out on us?

I went through and fixed the typos. Once again thanks!

I was joking of course--they're actually as "stock" a guitar translation of the Bill Evans voicings as I was able to come up with.

The one p.12 that you mention, I'm going to leave. I think that Eb13b9/C voicing is pretty cool ...

I thought it sounded pretty cool too, actually, particularly on the dominant chord (creates a lot of instability, which is of course the function of a dominant).

I don't disagree with the notion that those chords have unique qualities which can be useful . . . just that they're not at the top of the list for using in most ii-V-I progressions.

As regards the one on p.17, you just missed the indication that the fingering was based off 4th fret.

No, I was talking about the one at the bottom of the page.

[Jeff Brent]

Originally Posted by jazz oud

No, I was talking about the one at the bottom of the page.

Got it! (I moved the whole shape up a string, duh!)

[Vic J]

Thanks for the info Jeff...I will have some time later in the week to have a more in depth look......Appreciate you sharing this with us....

[Jeff Brent]

Originally Posted by Vic J

Thanks for the info Jeff...I will have some time later in the week to have a more in depth look......Appreciate you sharing this with us....

I'm looking forward to hearing from you ...

[ghard]

Jeff,
Thanks for the great lesson. The voicings sounds great.

A question though: Why rootless? You get more tensions with the limited number of possibilities that we guitarists have when leaving the root to the bass player, and I understand that could be the reason. However, Bill Evans was mentioned as an origin for this, and he should not have that limitation. Is there other reasons for keeping the voicings rootless?

[jazz oud]

Originally Posted by ghard

Jeff,
Thanks for the great lesson. The voicings sounds great.

A question though: Why rootless? You get more tensions with the limited number of possibilities that we guitarists have when leaving the root to the bass player, and I understand that could be the reason. However, Bill Evans was mentioned as an origin for this, and he should not have that limitation. Is there other reasons for keeping the voicings rootless?

A couple of reasons.
It frees up the bass player to be more melodic if you're not playing roots down near his register. Listen to the way Evans played with LaFaro, and it makes sense.
Also, when soloing, even a piano player mainly comps with one hand, so he devised a system for getting nice textures and tensions with strong voice leading and a minimum of movement.

[ghard]

Originally Posted by jazz oud

A couple of reasons.
It frees up the bass player to be more melodic if you're not playing roots down near his register. Listen to the way Evans played with LaFaro, and it makes sense.
Also, when soloing, even a piano player mainly comps with one hand, so he devised a system for getting nice textures and tensions with strong voice leading and a minimum of movement.

Thanks. I'll check Evans with LaFaro.

In some of Jeff's voicings there are great e.g. chromatic top note movements that would lead to the root of e.g. the I chord. To avoid the root, Jeff have suggested a jump that I would not have used (without good reason) instead of following the chromatic top note movement. Not getting in the way of the bass player is good reason for doing that, but the top note in the voicing should not be a problem. Getting in the way of the soloist is another thing, that I did not think of . I'll listen, test etc, but comments to my reasoning are also appreciated.

[jazz oud]

Originally Posted by ghard

In some of Jeff's voicings there are great e.g. chromatic top note movements that would lead to the root of e.g. the I chord. To avoid the root, Jeff have suggested a jump that I would not have used (without good reason) instead of following the chromatic top note movement. Not getting in the way of the bass player is good reason for doing that, but the top note in the voicing should not be a problem. Getting in the way of the soloist is another thing, that I did not think of . I'll listen, test etc, but comments to my reasoning are also appreciated.

"rootless voicing" doesn't necessarily mean there's no root in the chord, just that the chord is not voiced with the root on the bottom.
I agree with you about the leaps you mention; I think I commented earlier in the thread that those leaps are not how I would tend to voice-lead the chords.

Especially on the iii7 chord and on any ø7 chord, Evans's "rootless" voicings often have the root on the top or in the middle of the voicing (or for any I6 or i6 chord where he wanted the tonic in the melody).

[Jeff Brent]

Originally Posted by jazz oud

on any ø7 chord, Evans's "rootless" voicings often have the root on the top or in the middle of the voicing (or for any I6 or i6 chord where he wanted the tonic in the melody).

Since the ø7 virtually never occurs as a ø7b9, and the m9b5 generally only occurs as an altered minor when the target tonic is major, the preferred "Evans" voicing of the ø7 is usually some voicing of the 4 notes of the ø7 chord [ 1 b3 b5 b7 ].

Originally Posted by jazz oud

I agree with you about the leaps you mention; I think I commented earlier in the thread that those leaps are not how I would tend to voice-lead the chords.

Point taken about the lack of voice leading from the V to the I in some instances (but there is tons of great voice leading in the ii-Vs. As I mentioned earlier in this thread).

One of my main goals in putting this together was to have some nice grips that fall under the fingers which didn't require huge jumps from shape to shape or uncomfortable (or impossible) fingerings.

In an ensemble situation, it is not necessary for the guitarist to express every single voice leading. If other instruments are already fulfilling those functions, it can be superfluous for the guitarist to double them. Often it's enough that the guitarist is playing the "cool notes" no matter the voicing.

However, if you would like to fix these "problems" that you have seen with the voice leading in the V-I movements, please do.

The world of guitarists will be grateful, I'm certain.

And I'll be sure to include your name prominently in the credits!

Originally Posted by ghard

Jeff,
Thanks for the great lesson. The voicings sounds great.

Thank you very much. I appreciate the kind words!

[ghard]

Originally Posted by jazz oud

Listen to the way Evans played with LaFaro, and it makes sense.

I spotted a book on Evans harmony (The Harmony of Bill Evans by Jack reilly). Do you know the book? Is that good information?