Standard dominant in minor?

[alez]

Hi All,

Whenever I learn a new (tonal) tune, I tend to practice its V as V7 unless the melody suggests otherwise (like say the vocal phrase "why not take ALL OF me" in "All of Me", supported by a V13 as shown in the New Real Book, or the V7#9#5 shown for Blue Bossa in the same book), in fact I often go V7 even though the melody suggests something more sophisticated. I've learned that this is OK from Ralph Patt's Vanilla Book, which by the way shows the dominants on my two examples as V7, "ignoring" the melody kind of if you like. I'm alright with this because I've seen many songs where the melody beautifully emphasizes whatever non chord tones.

However, I have just read an article that says minor II-V most often comes in the form of IIm7b5 | V7alt, and I've begun to wonder if maybe V7 is not the most common or "default" dominant, specially in minor.

In other words, when you practice minor II-V, would you MOSTLY practice IIm7b5 | V7 or would you rather practice IIm7b5 | V7alt?

BTW, I'm not familiar with the "7alt" chord, as far as I've read it's most often written as 7alt, with 7#9#5, 7#9 and 7b13 being used as well, but that's all I know, can anyone spell it for me, please?

Cheers,

Alex

[jazz oud]

"7alt" theoretically includes any combinations of b5, #5, b9, and #9, and in a sense references the altered scale: 1, b2, #2, 3, #4, #5, b7 (diatonically spelled 1, b2, b3, b4, b4, b6, b7, but there is some disagreement about the actual role of the tones).

Often "7alt" is just shorthand for 7#5#9.

As a chordal player, it is true that the minor ii-V is more often iiø7 - V7#5#9 or iiø7 - V7#5b9

As an improviser, any of the options can work, and as a chordal player other options are available when tastefully applied. The two versions above work well with nearly any melodic choice an improviser is likely to make, however, while other options may feel restrictive to the improviser.

I would say the the b5 (or #11) option on the V7 chord, while certainly used, is not a "default" choice here. Also, that V7#9 and V7b9 (with a natural 5) is also completely fine and common.

The "vanilla book" changes are written that way to avoid dictating the variations that one might pay in a performance, and to clarify the harmonic patterns that repeat in many tunes. It's not necessarily saying that that's the way you should play it, just that it's the "bare bones" version.

[alez]

Fantastic post, thanks very much!!

From:
http://www.outsideshore.com/primer/p...l#AlteredScale

"The chord implied by this scale is often notated simply G7alt, although G7#9#5 is used as well, as is G7#9. The b9 and b5 symbols are not normally used in this context, despite being present in the scale, because they imply the diminished scale which is discussed later."

[jazz oud]

I disagree with the quoted statement regarding the b9. The b9 doesn't imply diminished, it is present in many scales besides dim.

a) 1 b2 3 4 5 b6 b7 (harmonic minor mode 5)
b) 1 b2 #2 3 5 b6 b7 (harmonic major mode 3)
c) 1 b2 #2 3 b5 b6 b7 (altered)
d) 1 b2 3 4 5 6 b7 (mixolydian b2)
e) 1 b2 3 #4 5 6 b7 (lydian b7b2)

It is also the naturally present 9th on the V7 chord in a minor key; it is a standard extension in minor and doesn't imply anything in particular (although it maybe rules out a few options: melodic minor mode 5, lydian b7, mixolydian, and whole tone)

of the options above, a) b) and c) are all common choices on V7 in minor. d) and e) are less common because they contain a M6, which is the M3 of the key (also true of h/w diminished).

The other relatively common option over V7 in minor is mode 5 of melodic minor:

1 2 3 4 5 b6 b7 (represented usually by V9#5)

[Ken Valentino]

I think the point is, does the key being minor open up different options for the 5 chord? Is that what is being asked?

[engelbach]

Originally Posted by alez

Hi All,

Whenever I learn a new (tonal) tune, I tend to practice its V as V7 unless the melody suggests otherwise (like say the vocal phrase "why not take ALL OF me" in "All of Me", supported by a V13 as shown in the New Real Book, or the V7#9#5 shown for Blue Bossa in the same book), in fact I often go V7 even though the melody suggests something more sophisticated. I've learned that this is OK from Ralph Patt's Vanilla Book, which by the way shows the dominants on my two examples as V7, "ignoring" the melody kind of if you like. I'm alright with this because I've seen many songs where the melody beautifully emphasizes whatever non chord tones.

However, I have just read an article that says minor II-V most often comes in the form of IIm7b5 | V7alt, and I've begun to wonder if maybe V7 is not the most common or "default" dominant, specially in minor.

In other words, when you practice minor II-V, would you MOSTLY practice IIm7b5 | V7 or would you rather practice IIm7b5 | V7alt?

BTW, I'm not familiar with the "7alt" chord, as far as I've read it's most often written as 7alt, with 7#9#5, 7#9 and 7b13 being used as well, but that's all I know, can anyone spell it for me, please?

Cheers,

Alex

Jazz Oud's comprehensive answers leave little more to say.

But for me the simplest answer is that is that if your melody and solo are to stay in the key and you don't want to extend the V7 chord, the 5 on the V7 chord has to be raised.

[jazz oud]

Originally Posted by Ken Valentino

I think the point is, does the key being minor open up different options for the 5 chord? Is that what is being asked?

I would say that if anything a minor key has fewer options for the dominant chord. A V7 in a major key can easily take any alteration or extension, while in a minor key it is more difficult to pull of any variation with a M13 (not impossible, but more challenging), and to a lesser extent the M9.

[alez]

Jazz oud, thanks for the time and effort spent writing all that, it's useful and I do appreciate it.

Originally Posted by jazz oud

of the options above, a) b) and c) are all common choices on V7 in minor. d) and e) are less common because they contain a M6, which is the M3 of the key (also true of h/w diminished).

Not sure why this M6 characteristic should make those two less common, I thought mixolylian was a very very common choice for V7 regardless of the tonalty being major or minor, also "half dim" (6th mode of the melodic minor scale, whatever that's called) over II in minor.

[jazz oud]

Originally Posted by alez

Jazz oud, thanks for the time and effort spent writing all that, it's useful and I do appreciate it.

You're welcome, I'm happy to help.

Not sure why this M6 characteristic should make those two less common, I thought mixolylian was a very very common choice for V7 regardless of the tonalty being major or minor, also "half dim" (6th mode of the melodic minor scale, whatever that's called) over II in minor.

mixolydian is not a common choice for V7 in a minor key.
Think of it this way: chords are pretty much made up of tones in the key, with alterations as needed. In minor, that means that we have to add the M7 of the key to get a V7 chord. Anything else takes us further out of the key than necessary.

The defining note in minor is the m3. Introducing the M3 in a minor key should be approached with caution (of course it can be and is used, but it tends to break the mood of the key if not done very carefully).

My conception is to think of two kinds of harmonic tension:
1) Tension with the key: notes in the key feel "inside" and notes out of the key feel "outside", this can be thought of as "linear tension"
2) Tension with the chord: notes that create dissonant intervals against the chord are more tense, which notes that create consonant intervals are less tense. This can be thought of as "vertical tension"

These two things are often not the same, and one must be able to balance these different kinds of dissonance. An example would be the M13 on a V7 chord in a minor key. It is very consonant on the chord, but very much outside of the key, creating linear tension. The opposite would be playing the note C on the V7 chord; it has a lot of vertical tension but has zero linear tension. F# would have both vertical and linear tension, while D would essential have neither.

Within those categories, of course you could rank tones as being more tense/less tense, but I'm simplifying for the sake of illustrating the concept.

The scales are really just particular collections of tones that work together over a particular chord. The simplest way to contrive a scale over a chord is to keep as many notes from the key as possible while substituting or adding tones that outline the chord.

For example, C minor:
C D Eb F G Ab Bb C

I = Cm6 (C Eb G A)
II = Dø7 (D F Ab C)
V = G7 (G B D F)

So for I, we could just substitute A for Ab: C D Eb F G A Bb C (C Dorian)
For II, all those notes are in the key already, so no change needed
For V, the B is not in the key. We could substitute B for Bb: G Ab B C D Eb F G

If we extend the chord using the notes in the key, we get:
G B D F Ab (C) Eb
The 11th is natural so we omit it. The 13th is a b13 (same as #5) and the 9th is b9. So the "naturally occurring" V7 chord in minor is V7#5b9 (or V7b9b13) with extensions and as little modification as possible.

Another possibility is to replace the C with the B, instead of the Bb, since the C conflicts somewhat anyway:
G Ab Bb B D Eb F G
In this case, we still have the Bb from the key, which is #9 on the V7 chord.

Now, I'm not at all saying that you can't use other options.
But I think it makes the most sense to figure out what the most "inside" sound is first, and then work your way out from there.

Since with minor we have natural, harmonic, and melodic minor, our complete minor tonality is:
1 2 b3 4 5 b6 6 b7 7, e.g.
C D Eb F G Ab A Bb B
Leaving only C#/Db, E, and F#/Gb as being foreign to the key.

You can use all those notes, but they all require some extra care to resolve them back into the key somehow.

Of course, this is a very basic and simplified overview, but hopefully it will clarify more than it confuses.

Note: for some reason it sounds more inside to use the m3 in a major key than it does to use the M3 in a minor key. I can't say for sure why this is, other than that the M3 is a half step above the m3, and it is always more tense to use a note a half step up (implying a m9) from a consonant tone than to use one a half step below (implying a M7).

[Ken Valentino]

Originally Posted by jazz oud

I would say that if anything a minor key has fewer options for the dominant chord. A V7 in a major key can easily take any alteration or extension, while in a minor key it is more difficult to pull of any variation with a M13 (not impossible, but more challenging), and to a lesser extent the M9.

I just meant "different". And yes the 3 of the key is harder, especially to make it want a b3. All this is influenced by other tendencies, but given that all else is weak, I agree the minor perspective is of course not as positive as major. Which usually means less options.
So to me the point is to find some sort of advantage in a minor cadence. That's all I was trying to say. How does the sound change if b3 is a destination. Obviously it takes out options that can be good for the V chord, but I can't think of a more negatively targeted chord than the V. Just wanted to clear up my last post.

[alez]

Jazz oud, great post, thanks.

From your arguments, I would've thought that the 5th mode of the melodic minor scale would then be a very natural choice for a plain V7 in minor (the "mixolydian for minor" if you like), however I haven't seen much mention of this anywhere, say for example:
http://tamingthesaxophone.com/jazz-scalechart.html

I've read the post, then thought about it, then read some bits of it again, thought about it a bit more, and so on, so I'm likely to come with more questions these days.

Thanks.

[alez]

I'm a huge fan of your "key tension vs chord tension" ideas BTW, so it's always nice to see those ideas used to explain whatever concepts.

[JonR]

Originally Posted by alez

Jazz oud, great post, thanks.

From your arguments, I would've thought that the 5th mode of the melodic minor scale would then be a very natural choice for a plain V7 in minor (the "mixolydian for minor" if you like), however I haven't seen much mention of this anywhere

Fair point.
Eg, you find melodic minor used on the V in the melody of Autumn Leaves (last phrase of A section). So there might seem no sensible reason not to use it in improvisation.

One issue which could make it a rare choice is the controversial "avoid note" issue. This is sometimes misunderstood, but refers to extensions on chords which make awkward dissonances with lower chord tones. (It doesn't mean notes that need to be avoided in melodic lines.)
So if you want to use the melodic minor scale of the key on the V chord, it has a perfect 4/11, which clashes with the M3 below. (This is why 11ths are normally omitted from maj and dom chords, unless either the 3rd is omitted or the 11th is raised.)
According to this theory (and evidently some common practice) improvisers like to use scales where any scale note can be added to the chord and make a good sounding harmony, enhancing the chord function.
This can explain the popularity in jazz of scales like dorian, lydian, lydian dominant, altered, HW dim (and WH dim on dim7s); they have no "avoid notes".
Essentially, most of the time, "avoid notes" are scale notes a half-step above chord tones, especially if voiced a b9 higher. Sometimes these can be used in chords, but the clashing chord tone would then be voiced above the problematic extension (a maj7 interval being less of an issue than a b9).
One important exception is the b9 in a 7b9 chord.

Another (perhaps better) explanation for the use of scales like altered or HW dim on minor key V7s (in fact it holds for major key V7s too) is the increased provision of half-step resolutions to chord tones or extensions on the tonic. Almost every chord tone/alteration on the V7 chord moves a half-step up or down to root, 3rd, 5th, 6th, maj7 or 9 on the tonic. (In minor, the altered scale doesn't provide a half-step move to the b3; but the HW dim scale does, from either the 2 or M3 (5th or 6th of the V7).)

Other connections worth bearing in mind:

1. The 7b9 chord is (as jazz oud says) fully diatonic in minor (harmonic minor that is). Without its root, it's the viio7 chord, which also has a strong dominant function. However, the diatonic harmonic minor scale has two "avoid notes" on the V chord: 4th (tonic of key) and b6 (b3 of key).

2. The altered scale on V is the same notes as the lydian dominant scale on bII.
IOW, the tritone sub for the V chord (bII) can take the exact same scale.
Eg, in A minor, both E7alt and Bb7(#11) would take the same improv scale, which is enharmonic with a mode of F melodic minor. In an important sense, the only difference between the chords is the bass/root note. (The relation with F minor is of course coincidence; the derivation of the altered scale in A minor is about keeping root-3-7 of the E7, and altering the other extensions to provide extra dissonance and half-step resolutions, and - arguably - "avoiding the avoid notes".)

[alez]

Also I was surprised to read this:

Originally Posted by jazz oud

I would say that if anything a minor key has fewer options for the dominant chord. A V7 in a major key can easily take any alteration or extension, while in a minor key it is more difficult to pull of any variation with a M13 (not impossible, but more challenging), and to a lesser extent the M9.

Given this:

Originally Posted by jazz oud

Since with minor we have natural, harmonic, and melodic minor, our complete minor tonality is:
1 2 b3 4 5 b6 6 b7 7

I mean, in minor you have 9 notes to build chords upon, yet you get less possibilities for its V than in major, which has 7 notes to use?

[alez]

Originally Posted by JonR

Eg, you find melodic minor used on the V in the melody of Autumn Leaves (last phrase of A section). So there might seem no sensible reason not to use it in improvisation.

I thought (from reading it somewhere reliable I can't remember) tune's melodies generally follow "rules" different to those for improvised solos (I mean in practice, not that they should for any particular reason), in particular they usually stick to notes purely diatonic to the key, avoiding dissonant notes for each chord in the progression. In other words, in a melody in C major you are as unlikely to find the note F over the chord C major as you are to find the note F# (which you would find in an improvised solo); or find either the note C or C# over G7 etc.

Originally Posted by JonR

One issue which could make it a rare choice is the controversial "avoid note" issue.

I can't see how that could be the case given that mixolydian is mentioned as a very common choice over V7 in major more often than lydian dominant is mentioned for the purpose. Also ionian seems more popular than lydian over I in major. In fact, mixolydian and ionian (and not lydian dominant or lydian) are the scales from which the major bebop and mixolydian bebop scales where derived.