Easy question (I think) about "alt" chords

[kingfisher]

As I mentioned before, I'm a beginning jazz pianist (just started taking lessons on August 22nd). I have what I think is a simple question about "alt" chords.

I know what the alt scale is. Let's take Galt, for example. My concept of the alt scale is that it preserves the root, third, and seventh of the dominant chord, and then adds the flat 2, the sharp 2, the flat 5, and the sharp 5. So for G, the scale would be G, G#, A#, B, C#, D#, F, and G again.

But when the lead sheet calls for the chord "G alt," the only thing I know is that it's a G chord that contains either a flat 5 or a sharp 5 and a flat 9 or a sharp 9. So what in the world am I supposed to play? If you sharp the 5 do you have to sharp the 9? if you flat the 5 do you have to flat the 9?

If you have any choice of sharp/flat 5 and sharp/flat 9, that leaves a total of 4 different choices. How do you decide which to play? Or is there a simple formula for what one should play when one sees "G alt"?

Thanks in advance.

[jazz oud]

If a chart says "G alt" it means that the extensions are up to the accompanist's discretion and you can use any combination of b5, #5, b9, and #9.

However, sometimes people write "alt" but it's not really quite as open as that. The "safest" combination of extensions is #5#9. The b5 is usually outside the key and while often totally usable, sometimes doesn't fit in with the vibe of the tune. #9 won't conflict with most melody notes besides the 3rd, and b9 won't conflict with most melody notes besides the root.

Regarding your alt "scale": it is conventional to spell it diatonically as the melodic minor scale starting on b2, so G alt is:
(G) Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F G

However, sound-wise this is really more like:
G Ab Bb B C# Eb F G

I recommend trying all the different combinations in different tunes/situations to see what each has to offer in various contexts. In particular pay attention to voice-leading in ii7-V7-I progressions

[engelbach]

Originally Posted by kingfisher

As I mentioned before, I'm a beginning jazz pianist (just started taking lessons on August 22nd). I have what I think is a simple question about "alt" chords.

I know what the alt scale is. Let's take Galt, for example. My concept of the alt scale is that it preserves the root, third, and seventh of the dominant chord, and then adds the flat 2, the sharp 2, the flat 5, and the sharp 5. So for G, the scale would be G, G#, A#, B, C#, D#, F, and G again.

But when the lead sheet calls for the chord "G alt," the only thing I know is that it's a G chord that contains either a flat 5 or a sharp 5 and a flat 9 or a sharp 9. So what in the world am I supposed to play? If you sharp the 5 do you have to sharp the 9? if you flat the 5 do you have to flat the 9?

If you have any choice of sharp/flat 5 and sharp/flat 9, that leaves a total of 4 different choices. How do you decide which to play? Or is there a simple formula for what one should play when one sees "G alt"?

Thanks in advance.

The two most common voicings for an alt chord, at least on piano, are these (root is in parens, as they're usually played rootless):

(1) 3 #5 b7 #9 or just 3 b7 #9

(1) b7 #9 3 #5

These chords can be extended in fourths:

(1) 3 b7 #9 #5 b9 #11

(1) b7 #9 3 #5 b9 #11

[Emeritus]

Originally Posted by engelbach

These chords can be extended in fourths:

(1) 3 b7 #9 #5 b9 #11

(1) b7 #9 3 #5 b9 #11

Jer, Nice fourth voicings. Thanks.

[kingfisher]

Thanks, guys. That is very helpful.

I was messing around with the #5#9 chords last night and it occured to me that the principal sound that makes the "alt" chord sound, well, like an "alt chord" is the flat3 against the 3. The #9 is really a flat 3 up an octave, right? So, in G there is a B natural and a B flat in the chord. This concept would also hold true for this chord in any key; in C there would be E natural and also an E flat (D sharp, technically, but they're enharmonic).

Of course, the other distinguishing note is the #5, but there are chords that have the #5 that don't have a #9.

Anyway, if one really wanted to emphasize that dissonance, couldn't one voice it so that the 3 and the #2 (or flat 3) are right next to each other?

[jazz oud]

Originally Posted by kingfisher

Thanks, guys. That is very helpful.

I was messing around with the #5#9 chords last night and it occured to me that the principal sound that makes the "alt" chord sound, well, like an "alt chord" is the flat3 against the 3. The #9 is really a flat 3 up an octave, right? So, in G there is a B natural and a B flat in the chord. This concept would also hold true for this chord in any key; in C there would be E natural and also an E flat (D sharp, technically, but they're enharmonic).

Of course, the other distinguishing note is the #5, but there are chords that have the #5 that don't have a #9.

Anyway, if one really wanted to emphasize that dissonance, couldn't one voice it so that the 3 and the #2 (or flat 3) are right next to each other?

You can do that, it's common in rootless voicings. It works better in the middle of a chord than the top.

C7alt: Bb D# E Ab

The #9 also occurs in other chords, with a natural 5 or 13. But you're right, the #9 is a prominent feature of the "alt" sound.

[michaelsorg]

Originally Posted by kingfisher

Thanks, guys. That is very helpful.

I was messing around with the #5#9 chords last night and it occured to me that the principal sound that makes the "alt" chord sound, well, like an "alt chord" is the flat3 against the 3. The #9 is really a flat 3 up an octave, right? So, in G there is a B natural and a B flat in the chord. This concept would also hold true for this chord in any key; in C there would be E natural and also an E flat (D sharp, technically, but they're enharmonic).

Of course, the other distinguishing note is the #5, but there are chords that have the #5 that don't have a #9.

Anyway, if one really wanted to emphasize that dissonance, couldn't one voice it so that the 3 and the #2 (or flat 3) are right next to each other?

Jerry's second voicing that he listed has the half step.

[michaelsorg]

Originally Posted by engelbach

The two most common voicings for an alt chord, at least on piano, are these (root is in parens, as they're usually played rootless):

(1) 3 #5 b7 #9 or just 3 b7 #9

(1) b7 #9 3 #5

These chords can be extended in fourths:

(1) 3 b7 #9 #5 b9 #11

(1) b7 #9 3 #5 b9 #11

You can put the root on top of these for a voicing containing all 7 notes of the altered scale. The chords have more dissonance with that tritone on top, but it's nice. The first can't be played simultaneously by a pianist with 2 hands, but the second can. The second is of, course, not solely in 4ths but has a half step within it. Some other cool mostly quartal altered voicings derived from the diminished scale are:
3 b7 b9 5 1 #11
b7 3 6 #9 5 1

[jazz oud]

Originally Posted by michaelsorg

The first can't be played simultaneously by a pianist with 2 hands

Those inadequate two-handed pianists! When will we get our genetically enhanced three-handed pianists?

[michaelsorg]

Originally Posted by jazz oud

Those inadequate two-handed pianists! When will we get our genetically enhanced three-handed pianists?

Yeah, I've already given a reconstructive surgeon up-front money for a 3rd arm and hand...as soon as the technique is made legal, I'm first in line (so he tells me)!!!

[Tarquin1986]

On V7#5 and V7b5 chords I often use the whole tone scale. That includes a natural 9 though.

[jazz oud]

Originally Posted by Tarquin1986

On V7#5 and V7b5 chords I often use the whole tone scale. That includes a natural 9 though.

An interesting exercise is to use the whole tone scale with the three dominant melodic minor scales, using the whole tone section to transition:
(whole tone in italics)
C7(#5 9 #11) whole tone C D E F# Ab Bb
C7(9 #11) Lydian b7 C D E F# G A Bb
C7(9 #5) F Melodic Minor C D E F G Ab Bb
C7(alt) Db Melodic Minor C Db Eb E F# Ab Bb

It kind of opens up the conception of the dominant.

Another similar exercises is to use the altered dominant to transition between the diminished and whole tone scales:

(whole tone in italics, diminished in bold)

C7(#5 9 #11) whole tone C D E F# Ab Bb
C7 (b9 #9 #11 13) diminished C Db Eb E F# G A Bb
C7(alt) Db melodic minor C Db Eb E F# Ab Bb

[engelbach]

Originally Posted by Tarquin1986

On V7#5 and V7b5 chords I often use the whole tone scale. That includes a natural 9 though.

Ditto. And we're in good company with Thelonious Monk.

[engelbach]

Originally Posted by jazz oud

Those inadequate two-handed pianists! When will we get our genetically enhanced three-handed pianists?

I have short pinkies, so for many tenths I have to roll the chord. I wish there was Viagra for fingers.

[engelbach]

Originally Posted by michaelsorg

You can put the root on top of these for a voicing containing all 7 notes of the altered scale. The chords have more dissonance with that tritone on top, but it's nice. The first can't be played simultaneously by a pianist with 2 hands, but the second can. The second is of, course, not solely in 4ths but has a half step within it. Some other cool mostly quartal altered voicings derived from the diminished scale are:
3 b7 b9 5 1 #11
b7 3 6 #9 5 1

Good ones!

You can also add a major third to the top of my examples, doubling the b7. Adds a little more power without creating more dissonance. And most two-handed pianists can reach them.

(1) 3 b7 #9 #5 b9 #11 b7

(1) b7 #9 3 #5 b9 #11 b7