Harmonizing a melody

[jazzman1945]

Originally Posted by jster

Link no good.

Link is perfect- with no problems BMP file/

[jster]

Originally Posted by jazzman1945

Link is perfect- with no problems BMP file/

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[jazzman1945]

jster
I apologize, check now http://www.mediafire.com/view/?up4olbfdq09wsmk

http://www.mediafire.com/?ieki2d8n11ajne6

[jster]

What is that? Beethoven? What's your point? That the melody doesn't move, but we go through I IV V?

Edit: OK, I didn't see the rest of it. I'm a bit confused by why you write out the uncombined stuff. Is that the standard way?

[jazzman1945]

Originally Posted by jster

What is that? Beethoven? What's your point? That the melody doesn't move, but we go through I IV V?

Popular Mozart's Sonata in C Major.
My idea - to try to put under every half bar melody just the tonic or only dominant, or only subdominant.Then select what sounds best(combine).
The result was a galloping bass line that reflects the functions order on which based the melody, and bass, showing the roots of chords.

Edit: OK, I didn't see the rest of it. I'm a bit confused by why you write out the uncombined stuff. Is that the standard way?

For a beginner it is an introduction to the area of harmonization. As it was said, by trial and error. For more interesting bass line and a larger collection of chords than C maj, F maj and G maj in root position ,You have to learn the harmony deeper.

[jster]

I was going through a bunch of this stuff tonight. Are there any examples of half-Phrygian cadences in jazz? The only example I could find was from 17th century. Seems like it would have to be the end of a section.

[jster]

Originally Posted by jazzman1945

As it was said, by trial and error. For more interesting bass line and a larger collection of chords than C maj, F maj and G maj in root position ,You have to learn the harmony deeper.

So how far out does the composition theory beginning with a single line go? Does it just tell you to try the iii and vi in place of the I and the ii in place of the IV? And throw in some minor harmony? Or are you then supposed to bring in counterpoint? Does it get to secondary dominants? I may know enough harmony to follow what you say. Thanks.

[kingfisher]

jster, for jingles you probably only need to really understand 2 or 3 cadences: authentic, half, and maybe deceptive or plagal.

Start with the cadences and work the harmonic structure back from there; that gives you a "target chord" for the others to work toward. So, say the jingle is in F. The first chord is F, and the chord at the end of the first phrase is either F (in which case you'll need an authentic cadence) or it's C (in which case you'll need a half cadence). Move the chords stepwise or by a jump of a 4th or a 5th and you can't get into too much trouble. Use your ears to tell you what sounds good.

[jster]

Are there many half cadences in jazz? In pop? Can you give me an example? Thanks.

[engelbach]

Originally Posted by jster

Are there any examples of half-Phrygian cadences in jazz? The only example I could find was from 17th century. Seems like it would have to be the end of a section.

I've never seen this in jazz.

In usage, IVm6 - V implies a full stop on V, which in jazz is more likely to be preceded by the secondary dominant V7/V; i.e. II7. So one is more likely to find VIm7 - II7 - V.

In jazz, a IVm6 is more likely to lead to a V7, making the equivalent of a IIm-V7 dominant pair, taking you back to Im. IVm6 is the same chord as an inverted IIm7b5 (II half-diminished, or IIø).

Example: Blue in Green

|| Gm13 (or BbΔ#11) - - - | A7alt - - - | Dm7 - Db7 - | Cm7 - F7 - |

| BbΔ - - - | A7alt - - - | Dm6 - - - | E7alt - - - | Am7 - - - | etc.

Dm6 - E7alt is equivalent to Bø - E7alt.

[jster]

Originally Posted by engelbach

I've never seen this in jazz.

In usage, IVm6 - V implies a full stop on V, which in jazz is more likely to be preceded by the secondary dominant V7/V; i.e. II7. So one is more likely to find VIm7 - II7 - V.

In jazz, a IVm6 is more likely to lead to a V7, making the equivalent of a IIm-V7 dominant pair, taking you back to Im. IVm6 is the same chord as an inverted IIm7b5 (II half-diminished, or IIø).

Example: Blue in Green

|| Gm13 (or BbΔ#11) - - - | A7alt - - - | Dm7 - Db7 - | Cm7 - F7 - |

| BbΔ - - - | A7alt - - - | Dm6 - - - | E7alt - - - | Am7 - - - | etc.

Dm6 - E7alt is equivalent to Bø - E7alt.

Thanks. Very helpful. But that's a modal tune. Are there examples of functional tunes with half-cadences? I had never heard of ending a section on a V chord until I started this thread. And kingfisher says they are even used in jingles! I never should have asked about Phrygian half-cadences specifically because I dont understand half-cadences generally. Deceptive I think I understand: wants to resolve, goes somewhere else. But half? Somehow it stops or we "feel" a rest on the V? No comprendo! I'm asking about cadences understood as places where we feel some kind of rest and occurring at the ends of sections. They had a big argument on the guitar site about whether cadences had to occur at the ends of sections and the conclusion seemed to be that according to the definition, they indeed are places of rest at the ends of sections. And so I am understanding cadences as only occurring at the end of sections. Hopefully that is OK. Here is a page with a bunch of cadences. He makes it sound like these half-cadences are common, but like I say the only one I could find is from the 17th century. And now we have this modal tune with one near, but not actually at, the end.

http://www.robertkelleyphd.com/cadencetypes.htm

[engelbach]

Originally Posted by jster

Thanks. Very helpful. But that's a modal tune. Are there examples of functional tunes with half-cadences? I had never heard of ending a section on a V chord until I started this thread. And kingfisher says they are even used in jingles! I never should have asked about Phrygian half-cadences specifically because I dont understand half-cadences generally. Deceptive I think I understand: wants to resolve, goes somewhere else. But half? Somehow it stops or we "feel" a rest on the V? No comprendo! I'm asking about cadences understood as places where we feel some kind of rest and occurring at the ends of sections. They had a big argument on the guitar site about whether cadences had to occur at the ends of sections and the conclusion seemed to be that according to the definition, they indeed are places of rest at the ends of sections. And so I am understanding cadences as only occurring at the end of sections. Hopefully that is OK. Here is a page with a bunch of cadences. He makes it sound like these half-cadences are common, but like I say the only one I could find is from the 17th century. And now we have this modal tune with one near, but not actually at, the end.

http://www.robertkelleyphd.com/cadencetypes.htm

I wouldn't characterize Blue in Green as a modal tune, although the turnaround — Am7 - Dm7 - Gm (or BbΔ#11) — has a modal feel.

I regard it as a tonal tune with two dominants, A7 and E7, resolving to two tonics that don't quite come to rest, Dm and Am, and it's usually ended on Dm6. The majority of the tune is functional.

But this is a digression from what you're after: a half-phrygian IVm6 - V. May I ask, why is this particular cadence important for your purposes?

[jster]

Originally Posted by engelbach

I wouldn't characterize Blue in Green as a modal tune, although the turnaround — Am7 - Dm7 - Gm (or BbΔ#11) — has a modal feel.

I regard it as a tonal tune with two dominants, A7 and E7, resolving to two tonics that don't quite come to rest, Dm and Am, and it's usually ended on Dm6. The majority of the tune is functional.

But this is a digression from what you're after: a half-phrygian IVm6 - V. May I ask, why is this particular cadence important for your purposes?

The phrygian half-cadence is a special case. I am interested in learning the standard ways that the Broadway guys and more sophisticated pop guys would harmonize a given melody. I was told to learn my cadences. I didn't think there was that much to cadences. I just figured they would be the standard ways of getting to the I or i chord at the end of a section. V-I, IV-I, minor variations, maybe tritone subs. But then I thought I better make sure. So I looked around the web and started reading. I like to do a thorough job and at the end of the first night's reading I was bogged down in the phrygian half-cadence which was actually the first half-cadence I had come to. It seemed rather obscure so I put the question up and went to bed. I shouldn't have asked about it.

I am more interested in half-cadences in general. kingfisher says that for jingles one needs to know half-cadences. But I don't know of a single simple diatonic tune or jingle that has a half-cadence. For the sake of argument, I'm happy to accept that Blue in Green is functional. But if half-cadences are needed for jingles, there should be lots more examples. What are they?

Thanks for the help!

[engelbach]

Originally Posted by jster

The phrygian half-cadence is a special case. I am interested in learning the standard ways that the Broadway guys and more sophisticated pop guys would harmonize a given melody. I was told to learn my cadences. I didn't think there was that much to cadences. I just figured they would be the standard ways of getting to the I or i chord at the end of a section. V-I, IV-I, minor variations, maybe tritone subs. But then I thought I better make sure. So I looked around the web and started reading. I like to do a thorough job and at the end of the first night's reading I was bogged down in the phrygian half-cadence which was actually the first half-cadence I had come to. It seemed rather obscure so I put the question up and went to bed. I shouldn't have asked about it.

I am more interested in half-cadences in general. kingfisher says that for jingles one needs to know half-cadences. But I don't know of a single simple diatonic tune or jingle that has a half-cadence. For the sake of argument, I'm happy to accept that Blue in Green is functional. But if half-cadences are needed for jingles, there should be lots more examples. What are they?

Thanks for the help!

Sorry, I dunno, never having studied jingles in depth. If you can't find examples on the Internet maybe they're just not that important.

It seems to me that whether than worry about this you should just write your cadences based on IIm-V-I.

[Mike A]

Originally Posted by jster

Are there examples of functional tunes with half-cadences? I had never heard of ending a section on a V chord until I started this thread. And kingfisher says they are even used in jingles!

If a half cadence is defined as ending a section on V, that's used in countless standards at the end of the first A section, e.g., in an AABA form. It sets up a return to the tonic (or a tonic function substitute) as the first chord of the next A section. Is that what you're talking about?