Knowing what scale to use

[mwtzzz]

Originally Posted by guitarjazz

The chord has plenty to say about how to play over it.

Only in the context of the surrounding chords (the changes). By itself a chord is almost meaningless.

[engelbach]

Originally Posted by mwtzzz

Only in the context of the surrounding chords (the changes). By itself a chord is almost meaningless.

I know what you mean, but I wouldn't quite put it that way. A chord has a number of possible meanings, depending upon how you play over it.

One might say that a chord out of context has no definitive meaning, but even in context, one can choose to ignore what is obvious and do something unexpected.

A bII - I, for example, can be played as a tritone sub resolving to a tonic or as the key of bII modulating to the key of I, depending upon how you structure the melody.

[guitarjazz]

Originally Posted by mwtzzz

Only in the context of the surrounding chords (the changes). By itself a chord is almost meaningless.

Bb13#11
(sorry, I don't know why typing that feels like I'm entering the National Lampoon punch line contest)

[Jay Norem]

Originally Posted by mwtzzz

By itself a chord is almost meaningless.

I totally agree. No matter how hip the chord may be, no matter how it may tug at your heart, it's nothing by itself, it is without purpose or meaning, those things that are its life's blood. It's a beautiful thing, giving purpose and meaning to a chord.

[Jeff Brent]

Originally Posted by guitarjazz

Bb13#11
(sorry, I don't know why typing that feels like I'm entering the National Lampoon punch line contest)

I might know ...


In a strictly tonal context, one could certainly put forth a case that a chord with no surrounding context might not have "meaning", but that hypothesis doesn't hold water in a broader more worldly sense of music.

In Hindu dronal musics they'll play one chord forever and in spite of that there's no shortage of fireworks!

There exists any number of tunes in the popular musics around the world that are basically one-chord jams.

What is it that gives those one-chord songs meaning? Is it the lyrics? Is it the beat/groove? Is it the chord itself? Is it the passion that it's played with?

Further, there is music without chords. Is that music less meaningful and less emotionally affective because there is no harmony at all?

[mwtzzz]

Originally Posted by Jeff Brent

In Hindu dronal musics they'll play one chord forever and in spite of that there's no shortage of fireworks!

There exists any number of tunes in the popular musics around the world that are basically one-chord jams.

What is it that gives those one-chord songs meaning? Is it the lyrics? Is it the beat/groove? Is it the chord itself? Is it the passion that it's played with?

Further, there is music without chords. Is that music less meaningful and less emotionally affective because there is no harmony at all?

Actually what many people don't realize is that when you improvise over supposedly a single chord, your improvisation often implies changes, so in fact you are not improvising over a single chord, but you are improvising over changes. This goes for the examples you give above. A "one chord jam" may consist of the rhythm section playing only a single chord, but the improvisor often varies the harmony (whether you realize it or not!). The only exception to this is if you stick strictly to the limited set of tones that imply that single chord, one example of which is the standard pentatonic scale. The C major pentatonic scale is C6 harmony. If you improvise using only c, d, e, g, a over a C major triad, then you are truly making music with only a single chord, as long as you only stay with those five tones. This can be made more or less interesting depending on your phrasing, how you make use of the rhythm, and such things. And yes, some "droning music" limits itself to this type of thing and yes it is music although how interesting or boring it is would be is personal taste I suppose. But one thing to realize, is that once you sneak in a "b" tone or "f" tone, or any other tone not listed in those five in my example, you are no longer playing a C6 harmony. You have changed and chances are very good you have done a "standard" change of the kind we are all familiar with.

[jazz oud]

Hindustani music doesn't use "chords" unless you call C-G a "chord".

And since they will use hundreds of ragas over the same C-G drone, it seems that while it might imply something, it isn't very much.

Arab and Turkish music don't use chords either (and mostly don't even use drones), and their improvisations are fully chromatic with all kinds of modulation happening.

Some African or Asian music might fit the "one chord" description, but it still isn't devoid of context because there is always a certain cultural context.

What you are really talking about is modal music where there is an assumption of a particular mode and any "chord" is a consequence of that, rather than the other way around.

[guitarjazz]

Okay I'm inspired to write a new piece. It's really just a groove and some changes at this point. The changes are a bar of Bb13#11 and a bar of Abminb5(#9[Bb]) ....what do I tell people to play over it if someone asks?

[jazz oud]

Originally Posted by guitarjazz

Okay I'm inspired to write a new piece. It's really just a groove and some changes at this point. The changes are a bar of Bb13#11 and a bar of Abminb5(#9[Bb]) ....what do I tell people to play over it if someone asks?

What do you mean by Abminb5#9? A minor chord can't have a #9, it's the same as the third. Do you mean Abm9(b5)?

[guitarjazz]

Originally Posted by jazz oud

What do you mean by Abminb5#9? A minor chord can't have a #9, it's the same as the third. Do you mean Abm9(b5)?

That's fine.That'll do. The natural symbol(where is that on my keyboard?) is probably correct right for a raised second on a min7b5, right? Or Ab half-diminished (raised 9), or Cbmin(#7)/Ab.
What do you tell the people playing my little two chord masterpiece about what materials to solo with (once I use the right chord symbols!)?

[engelbach]

Originally Posted by guitarjazz

Okay I'm inspired to write a new piece. It's really just a groove and some changes at this point. The changes are a bar of Bb13#11 and a bar of Abminb5(#9[Bb]) ....what do I tell people to play over it if someone asks?

Tell them to create a melody using any or all of the twelve notes available.

Sorry. Facetiousness aside: What would you play over them? If you're looking for a particular flavor based on specific scales, you'll have to include that information. Absent that, any competent musician can decide for himself what to play over them.

[guitarjazz]

Originally Posted by engelbach

Tell them to create a melody using any or all of the twelve notes available.

Sorry. Facetiousness aside: What would you play over them? If you're looking for a particular flavor based on specific scales, you'll have to include that information. Absent that, any competent musician can decide for himself what to play over them.

Some chords (13#11 maybe)contain so many notes that if you arrange the notes in seconds instead of thirds you have..ta..da..a scale.

[jazz oud]

For me, it would depend somewhat on the context.

How long do the chords last? If it's half a measure, I would probably interpret them as creating a Ab diminished sonority overall (with whichever note was on the downbeat as the root, so either dominant or diminished as the root).

Close to, but not quite symmetrical octatonic scale just from combining the two chords:

Bb B Db D E F# G Ab

If they each lasted 2 or more measures, I would likely take a modal approach.
There are a lot of options and it's a weird sound to move between those two chords.
Bb13#11:
1. Bb C D E F G Ab (Lydian b7)
2. Bb C D E F# G Ab
3. Bb B Db D E F G Ab (octatonic)
4. Bb C D E G Ab (hexatonic Lydian b7 subset, Gm/C+ triad pair))
5. Bb C E G Ab (pentatonic Lydian b7 subset)
6. Bb C D E G (pentatonic Lydian b7 subset)
7. Bb B C# D E G Ab (heptatonic diminished subset)
etc.
G#m9(b5)
8. G# A# B C# D E F# (B mel.min. or G# Locrian#2)
9. G# A# B C# D E# F# (F# harmonic major)
10. G# A# B C# D F# (hexatonic subset)
11. G# B C# D F# (pentatonic subset)
12. A# B C# D# F# (pentatonic subset)
13. F# A# B C# D# E (pentatonic subset-this is a nice one)

Plus, of course, all the chromatic tones used contextually to support the strong tones and whatever "outside" playing made sense at the time.

Of these, #7 and #9 are interesting in that they only differ by one note (G instead of F#)
alternating between the #5 and #12 pentatonics is interesting.

[jazz oud]

Originally Posted by guitarjazz

Some chords (13#11 maybe)contain so many notes that if you arrange the notes in seconds instead of thirds you have..ta..da..a scale.

Well, absent any context, one shouldn't assume that 13#11 has a natural 9th or 5th in the scale. You have a point, but the reality is that a chord as played in context won't have all 7 notes, and even if it does, that doesn't mean that one must treat that scale as the appropriate pool of melodic note choices.

I agree with you that a chord does imply something, but the amount of consistent information across various contexts is pretty small.

[engelbach]

I like this on Ab9#11. Eb harmonic minor.

Ab Bb B D Eb F Gb