Knowing what scale to use

[guitarjazz]

Originally Posted by jazz oud

Well, absent any context, one shouldn't assume that 13#11 has a natural 9th or 5th in the scale. You have a point, but the reality is that a chord as played in context won't have all 7 notes, and even if it does, that doesn't mean that one must treat that scale as the appropriate pool of melodic note choices.

I agree with you that a chord does imply something, but the amount of consistent information across various contexts is pretty small.

I also agree with you that a chord symbol can lead to a multitude of implications but when I see a Bb13#11 I think of (like this is a surprise to you) the notes in an F melodic minor as 'ground zero'. I'm fine with playing what you hear and coming up subsets of scales but I'll confess that my ear hears F melodic minor as the most 'inside'.
I also like it when a student knows basic scales and knows how to tear them apart upside down and sideways. At least they'll have the chops to start picking up on things they hear the masters play. They also might acclimate their ears to hear something besides a pentatonic scale.

[jazz oud]

Well, it depends . . . in a tune like "Invitation", I wouldn't necessarily regard Lydian b7 as the default, most inside choice.

But it's true that in modal contexts, each chord often tends to imply just one or two particular scales.

My main issue is with thinking that chords=scales, and the narrow and flawed thinking and hearing that that sometimes leads to with students. Not saying you think that, but just clarifying.

[engelbach]

Originally Posted by guitarjazz

I also agree with you that a chord symbol can lead to a multitude of implications but when I see a Bb13#11 I think of (like this is a surprise to you) the notes in an F melodic minor as 'ground zero'. I'm fine with playing what you hear and coming up subsets of scales but I'll confess that my ear hears F melodic minor as the most 'inside'.

Chords are usually notated so as to fit the head.

I think that it's normal to depart from that in the solo. In fact, it's probably safe to say that playing b9 is prevalent in jazz.

Bb13#11 would not stop me from playing Bb9#5, Bb7alt, or some other variation while improvising.

[guitarjazz]

Originally Posted by engelbach

Chords are usually notated so as to fit the head.

I think that it's normal to depart from that in the solo. In fact, it's probably safe to say that playing b9 is prevalent in jazz.

Bb13#11 would not stop me from playing Bb9#5, Bb7alt, or some other variation while improvising.

Certainly not.
Since all dominant seventh chords are so malleable why bother putting anything more than [letter name]7 in a chart with blowing changes?
Is it worth breaking up scales into diatonic triad, seventh chord, ninth, eleventh, and thirteenth arpeggios to explore the various harmonic structures they yield?

[guitarjazz]

Originally Posted by jazz oud

Well, it depends . . . in a tune like "Invitation", I wouldn't necessarily regard Lydian b7 as the default, most inside choice.

But it's true that in modal contexts, each chord often tends to imply just one or two particular scales.

My main issue is with thinking that chords=scales, and the narrow and flawed thinking and hearing that that sometimes leads to with students. Not saying you think that, but just clarifying.

Which chords in Invitation? What scale do you prefer? BTW I see that there is a recording of the composer playing it...must download.

[engelbach]

Originally Posted by guitarjazz

Certainly not.
Since all dominant seventh chords are so malleable why bother putting anything more than [letter name]7 in a chart with blowing changes?
Is it worth breaking up scales into diatonic triad, seventh chord, ninth, eleventh, and thirteenth arpeggios to explore the various harmonic structures they yield?

Right. The reason to put in the alterations is so the harmony will agree with the head melody.

[mwtzzz]

Originally Posted by guitarjazz

Since all dominant seventh chords are so malleable why bother putting anything more than [letter name]7 in a chart with blowing changes?

the thing to know is that different altered tones are appropriate in different circumstances, you need to know which one you're going to be using and why. For example, you typically will use a dominant 7th chord with a b13 when the chord is a secondary dominant of a minor chord. You don't use the "altered scale" or some other concoction. You stay mostly diatonic and just flat the 13. As a result, you have a single important altered tone to an otherwise standard "mixolydian" scale that you might use in a purely diatonic song.

G7, G7b9, G7#5, G7alt each have their different uses, as I believe I already pointed out earlier in this thread

[guitarjazz]

Originally Posted by mwtzzz

G7, G7b9, G7#5, G7alt each have their different uses, as I believe I already pointed out earlier in this thread

And what scales do you think fit with those chords?

[engelbach]

Originally Posted by mwtzzz

For example, you typically will use a dominant 7th chord with a b13 when the chord is a secondary dominant of a minor chord. You don't use the "altered scale" or some other concoction.

Is there some proof that this is typical??

I don't see any problem using a variety of pitch collections/scales regardless of the diatonic setting, including the altered scale whenever one chooses. The only important thing is that the dominant chord "point" to the tonic, which is accomplished by the dominant chord's leading tone and, to a lesser extent when moving to a minor tonic, the dominant chord's 7th. And the melody can move from dominant to tonic in many less restrictive ways.

By secondary dominant of a minor chord, do you mean the minor as a temporary tonicisation, the tune of which is in a different key?

[michaelsorg]

Originally Posted by mwtzzz

the thing to know is that different altered tones are appropriate in different circumstances, you need to know which one you're going to be using and why. For example, you typically will use a dominant 7th chord with a b13 when the chord is a secondary dominant of a minor chord. You don't use the "altered scale" or some other concoction. You stay mostly diatonic and just flat the 13. As a result, you have a single important altered tone to an otherwise standard "mixolydian" scale that you might use in a purely diatonic song.

G7, G7b9, G7#5, G7alt each have their different uses, as I believe I already pointed out earlier in this thread

If you analyze solos of the past 20-30 years, you will definitely hear a lot of use of the altered scale on dominant going to minor. The reason it fits so well is that bassists so often make use of the tritone sub, and chord players don't want to be left "high and dry" sounding square, so they're playing what fits that. Not to say that the greats don't use 5th mode of melodic minor approaching V7/ii or harmonic minor on V7/vi. As Jerry mentioned, the flat 9 is very important to most players as a tension. It's used whether approaching major or minor, and especially well-emphasized when it's NOT diatonic.

[mwtzzz]

Originally Posted by guitarjazz

And what scales do you think fit with those chords?

G7 (diatonic): G A B D F
G6 (diatonic) : G A B D E
G7b9: G Ab B D F
G6b9: G Ab B D E
G7#5: G A B D# F
G7alt with natural 5th: G Ab Bb B D Eb F
G7alt: G Ab Bb B Db Eb F

These aren't scales, these are sets of tones that imply the specified harmonies. A scale doesn't imply harmony. A subset of a scale implies harmony, but not entirely on its own. It has some dependence on the chord that precedes it and the one that comes after.

[mwtzzz]

Originally Posted by engelbach

Is there some proof that this is typical??

ummm yeah. Listen to music.

You guys seem hung up on saying that "any tone can be played over anything" and things "don't have to be tonal", but I'll tell you right now any musican had better learn how to play and improvise in a tonal context and get familiar with the "rules" in that before they attempt other things. Picasso didn't start painting abstract stuff until he had mastered traditional art.

I mean, it's gonna be hard enough for most beginning musicians to even get competent in something other than throwing a couple pentatonic scales around, so why are you all talking about all this stuff where most people are never even going to get to that point, especially if they don't have the proper grounding?

I mean wasn't the original posting of this thread by a novice jazz student?

I don't see any problem using a variety of pitch collections/scales regardless of the diatonic setting, including the altered scale whenever one chooses. The only important thing is that the dominant chord "point" to the tonic,

Sorry to disagree, but this is not correct. Each single altered tone you can put on a chord has a different effect and you need to know it. Either your ear needs to know it, or you need some understanding about when it is "more appropriate" to alter a certain tone or not, but either way you need to know it.

the other person who said most people will flat the key's "ii" (the 5th of the dominant) is an example.

By secondary dominant of a minor chord, do you mean the minor as a temporary tonicisation, the tune of which is in a different key?

So in the key of C let's say you're using B7 in front of Em, in which case you would use a B7b13 (G natural.) This is to say that you don't play the B Mixolydian scale and you don't play Balt. .... Or, to be more precise: if you are harmonizing a diatonic melody in C and you want to insert a secondary dominant in front of a temporary tonic, this choice will best keep the tonality of the key while at the same time providing a dominant function.

[engelbach]

Originally Posted by mwtzzz

ummm yeah. Listen to music.

I not only listen to it, but I've been playing it for over fifty years.

You guys seem hung up on saying that "any tone can be played over anything" and things "don't have to be tonal", but I'll tell you right now any musican had better learn how to play and improvise in a tonal context and get familiar with the "rules" in that before they attempt other things. Picasso didn't start painting abstract stuff until he had mastered traditional art.

The discussion has reached the point of assuming that most people participating understand the rules and know how to use chord tones, key notes, passing tones, approach tones, and various scales to make music.

I mean, it's gonna be hard enough for most beginning musicians to even get competent in something other than throwing a couple pentatonic scales around, so why are you all talking about all this stuff where most people are never even going to get to that point, especially if they don't have the proper grounding?

I mean wasn't the original posting of this thread by a novice jazz student?

More than two months ago. His questions were answered and the discussion has evolved. We don't confine our comments to what will be understood only by beginners.

Sorry to disagree, but this is not correct. Each single altered tone you can put on a chord has a different effect and you need to know it. Either your ear needs to know it, or you need some understanding about when it is "more appropriate" to alter a certain tone or not, but either way you need to know it.

the other person who said most people will flat the key's "ii" (the 5th of the dominant) is an example.

Of course one needs to know how to use the notes to create the music convincingly. That's understood.

But claiming that one cannot use a 7alt chord or an altered scale to approach a minor chord is not borne out in actual playing.

I repeat that the only important criterion of a dominant is to point to a tonic. The most important notes of the dominant are the root and the third, the leading tone to the tonic, both of which are present in the Alt chord and scale.

So in the key of C let's say you're using B7 in front of Em, in which case you would use a B7b13 (G natural.) This is to say that you don't play the B Mixolydian scale and you don't play Balt. .... Or, to be more precise: if you are harmonizing a diatonic melody in C and you want to insert a secondary dominant in front of a temporary tonic, this choice will best keep the tonality of the key while at the same time providing a dominant function.

In practice I can play in C, play a B7alt, and convincingly end on Em as a tonic. It's quite common.

By "best keep the tonality of the key," you mean conform to eighteenth century norms of smoothness in harmonic texture. We've moved beyond that, and more textured cadences and Alt chords are at the heart of jazz.

[michaelsorg]

Jerry, well said! I was led to the 7th mode of melodic minor in high school during a clinic with the late great Rich Matteson. Hi was explaining Bud Powell's reharm on "Somewhere over the Rainbow" and asked what scale do you use here (altered dom 7)? And I knew the chord well because I had discovered it on my own; I had also discovered the tritone sub on my own. But I never had figured out that there was a scale to correspond directly to it. And he opened my eyes. I was a jazz novice then, with a good ear and very little technique. I could (and did) use that morsel of knowledge right away, and so can the poster of this thread. It ain't rocket science, it's music.

[engelbach]

Originally Posted by michaelsorg

It ain't rocket science, it's music.

That's one to remember, Mike!