ii-V-I with a V9?

[GabrielSaul]

I've been trying out a ii-V-I as follows:

Dm9 - G9 - Cmaj7

Is the V9 unorthodox? What chord is used for the V?

I think I've seen V#9b5 used before, not familiar with that chord.

Any suggestions?

Thanks

GabrielSaul

[GabrielSaul]

I've found now the G7add6 sounds a bit more appropriate, sort of glides on top of the Dmin9.

[guitarjazz]

Check out Modern Chord Progressions by Ted Greene.

[kingfisher]

I think it is quite common to use a V9 in a 2-5-1 progression, especially in minor. Alt chords are also commonly used.

[GabrielSaul]

Originally Posted by kingfisher

I think it is quite common to use a V9 in a 2-5-1 progression, especially in minor. Alt chords are also commonly used.

What's the basics of a minor 2-5-1? I haven't worked on any as of yet.

I've heard a lot about alt chords, have never really encountered them though.
Are they sometimes referred to as 7b5b9?

I heard the formula is something like this:

1 - 3 - b5 OR #5 - b7 - b9 OR #9

Henceforth would:

G - B - D# - F - G#

be a G7#5b9?

Sorry, I ramble a lot when I'm trying to learn.

[GabrielSaul]

Thanks for the alt chord suggestion!

I've written a different 2-5-1:

Dm11 - G7#5b9 - Cmaj7

and I really prefer the sound of it. A lot crunchier.

[kingfisher]

Yep. The alt chord is generally either a # or a flat 5 witha # or flat 9. I started a recent thread about alt chords that you can read through. It has a lot of great information in it.

I'm glad I was able to help you a little. I'm kind of a beginner, too, but learning more all the time.

[JonR]

Originally Posted by GabrielSaul

Thanks for the alt chord suggestion!

I've written a different 2-5-1:

Dm11 - G7#5b9 - Cmaj7

and I really prefer the sound of it. A lot crunchier.

7alt chords are more common in minor keys, although can be used in major.

I.e, a typical major key ii-V-I would use an unaltered V7 chord. A minor key ii-V-i would use a half-dim ii chord and an altered V7.

C major:
Dm7-G7-Cmaj7
Dm9-G9-Cmaj9
Dm9-G13-C69
etc

C minor
Dm7b5-G7b9-Cm6
Dm7b5-G7#5#9-Cm(maj7)
Dm7b5-G7b5b9-Cm(add9)
etc.

It's quite common to "borrow" the typical minor key ii-V in a major key.

The key to making any of these changes work (altered or not) is to look at the voice-leading. If you're a guitarist, try to get shapes close to each other on the neck, and look for both shared tones and for half-step or whole step moves (esp half-steps). Think of each string as a separate "voice".

Here's some examples:
Dm7 G13 C69
----------------------------
-6---5---3---------------------
-5---4---2---------------------
-3---3---2---------------------
-5---5---3---------------------
----------------------------

Dm7b5 G7#9 C6
----------------------------
-9----11----10-----------------
-10---10----9------------------
-10---9-----10-----------------
------10---(10)----------------
-10---------8----------------

Dm7b5 G7#9#5 Cm69
-13-----11----10---------------
-13-----11----10-----------------
-13-----10----8------------------
-12-----9-----10-----------------
--------10-----------------------
--------------(8)------------

Dm7b5 G7b9* Cm6
-8------7-----5-------------
-6------6-----4----------------
-7------7-----5----------------
-6------6-----5----------------
-------------------------------
-----------------------------
* rootless, same as Bdim7.

Notice that an altered G7 resembles its tritone sub Db7:

Dm7b5 G7b5 (=Db7b5) Cm6
------------------------
-3------2-------------1------
-5------4-------------2------
-3------3-------------1------
-5------4-------------3------
-4------3------------------

Dm7b5 Db7 Cm
----------------------------
-6-----6----4----------------
-5-----4----5----------------
-6-----6----5----------------
-5-----4----3----------------
-----------------------------
Db7 = rootless G7b5b9. Works in C major too:

Dm7 G7b5 (=Db7b5) C6
------------------------
-3------2-----------1------
-5------4-----------2------
-3------3-----------2------
-5------4-----------3------
--------3------------------

Dm7 Db7 Cmaj7
----------------------------
-6----6----5----------------
-5----4----4----------------
-7----6----5----------------
-5----4----3----------------
-----------------------------

Dm7 Db13 C6
-8----6----5------------------
-6----6----5----------------
-5----4----5----------------
-7----6----5----------------
-5----4----3-----------------
-----------------------------

[GabrielSaul]

Brilliant stuff, was just about to ask about minor 2-5-1s.

Does the im9 ever get used? I thought it'd be appropriate for Dorian styled progressions.

[guitarjazz]

You should go out and spend a dime on Joe Pass Guitar Style. You'll learn more than you can imagine about chords and chord progressions in the first five pages.

[JonR]

Originally Posted by GabrielSaul

Brilliant stuff, was just about to ask about minor 2-5-1s.

Does the im9 ever get used? I thought it'd be appropriate for Dorian styled progressions.

Sure. But in modal jazz you don't really get "progressions", like you do in functional (key) harmony.
A Dorian "i" chord could well be a m7, m9, m11, m6. But you won't generally find it being resolved to with a ii-V. (And in fact, an "m6" chord symbol is more commonly used for a minor key tonic, implying melodic minor, not dorian.)
Also, dorian chords (like most modal jazz chords) tend to be voiced differently from functional chords. The latter are generally tertian (built in 3rds), while the former are often in 4ths (quartal). Eg, a m11 chord voiced 1-4-b7-b3(-5).

When you get an apparent dorian im7 following a ii-V, it's quite likely it will itself go on to be the ii of the next sequence.
Eg, if you see Em7-A7-Dm7, a lot of time that Dm7 will be followed by G7 and C. IOW, the Dm7 is not a "i" at all, but a "ii" in the new key.

But that's just what you might call "common practice". You can use a im9 chord anywhere you damn well like!

[engelbach]

Originally Posted by GabrielSaul

I've been trying out a ii-V-I as follows:

Dm9 - G9 - Cmaj7

Is the V9 unorthodox? What chord is used for the V?

I think I've seen V#9b5 used before, not familiar with that chord.

Any suggestions?

Thanks

GabrielSaul

Adding 9 and 13 to chords is bread and butter to standard A and B rootless voicings. Not remotely unorthodox.

Typical type A rootless progression:

Dm9 = F A C E
G13 = F A B E
C69 = E G A D

P.S. It wouldn't be called G7add6, but G7add13. Although more usually you might imply including the 9 as well and call it G13.

[guitarjazz]

Originally Posted by GabrielSaul

I've been trying out a ii-V-I as follows:

Dm9 - G9 - Cmaj7

Is the V9 unorthodox? What chord is used for the V?

I think I've seen V#9b5 used before, not familiar with that chord.

Any suggestions?

Thanks

GabrielSaul

For days: http://www.amazon.com/Stylistic-II-V.../dp/1562240846

[custard apple]

Originally Posted by guitarjazz

For days: http://www.amazon.com/Stylistic-II-V.../dp/1562240846

Thanks for the link to the Luke Gillespie voicings book.
I'm a pianist. At some stage, I need to formally study A and B voicings.
Is the book for solo or combo ?

[guitarjazz]

Originally Posted by custard apple

Thanks for the link to the Luke Gillespie voicings book.
I'm a pianist. At some stage, I need to formally study A and B voicings.
Is the book for solo or combo ?

It's all chord voicings so I'll say 'both'. You'd love it.