I know labels don't matter but.....

[bazzie]

.....I'm a bit confused about the difference between Hard Bop and West Coast. I think Art Pepper is regarded as West Coast, and Art Blakey as Hard Bop. But what about Shelley Manne? It seems he could fit either.

And for that matter, is Woody Shaw post-bop? Because some of his stuff seems distinctly Hard Bop.

Or shall I just forget about classification and end enjoy the music?

Happy New Year!

[jazz oud]

"Hard Bop" generally refers to music with elements from Bebop but an emphasis on bluesy, funky, and gospel elements.

"West Coast" and "Cool" are often used interchangeably, and are not very helpful labels because there aren't enough unifying characteristics. For instance, Stan Getz, Lee Konitz, Paul Desmond, Lennie Tristano, Art Pepper, Chet Baker, and Gerry Mulligan all are labeled "cool" by some classifiers, but there isn't a unifying characteristic among them other than that they are all white musicians. Getz played a lot of uptempo and intense music, as did Art Pepper (I would regard Pepper as essentially a Bebop musician). Mulligan and Baker are similar in their relaxed and intuitive approach, which is quite different than the intensely demanding rhythmic and intellectual approach of Tristano and Konitz (who were both actually East Coast).
The closest thing to a unifying characteristic would be the influence of Lester Young, whose laid back and spontaneous improvisations and softer tone influenced all of the above. But that influence is also present in Wayne Shorter, so it's not enough on its own.
Mingus is from the West Coast, but isn't a "West Coast" musician.

Regarding Shelly Manne, I'd say technically West Coast, but he had a more vigorous approach than is typically associated with "cool" drummers.

[Tenorman]

There are a number of loose links in West Coast Jazz

Kenton being one, and the Lighthouse being another. There is another link, which is the cinema. Many of the musicians involved were making their money from the film studios as studio musicians.

[Hot Ptah]

Here is my personal take on your original post. I think that the labels put on music, such as hard bop and West Coast, are not that useful.

Through the 1970s at least, jazz writers tended to write about jazz conforming to a strict orthodoxy, using a linear historical method, which did not reflect reality (in my humble opinion). The orthodox line was that jazz started out as a simple music, with simple rhythms and a lot of blues feeling--The Swing Era. Then it improved by adding more complex harmonies and rhythms--The Bop Era. Then a bluesy, soulful element was added to bop--Hard Bop. Then the avant garde came in, advancing the music still further. Then the jazz/rock fusion movement came in, adding some creative ideas and instruments.

The jazz writers who conformed to this view tended to strongly reject any jazz which did not fit into their neat little storyline. They were prone to judgmental outbursts. One of the main targets of their scorn was what they called West Coast Jazz. To these writers, West Coast Jazz was smoother, prettier, with less hard charging rhythms, than Hard Bop--therefore West Coast Jazz was inferior and had to be mocked. That was the view of these writers.

I have heard great jazz musicians speak of the West Coast jazz stars of the 1950s with envy, saying that they made more money than the East Coast jazz artists of the same time.

Some of this was racial. The West Coast jazz stars of the 1950s were mostly white, while the Hard Bop artists of the East Coast were mostly black. Some jazz writers were of the view that only black people could play real jazz, and that white people were interlopers on this black art form.

To me, none of this was real. In recent years, it has become apparent that there are many approaches to jazz, as many as there are people, and that jazz may be very positively influenced by artists from other nations, bringing their personal and cultural influences to jazz. However, I think that was always true. The West Coast white jazz artists of the 1950s may have had a different approach than the Hard Bop giants, but to me, their approach was just as personal and valid.

I have found much beautiful, interesting and compelling music in what was once scorned as mere West Coast jazz. I do not find the labelling and division of jazz and jazz artists to be useful, either for writers or listeners.

Compared to the rap, dance pop, pop country and heavy metal which has swept over the music world, whether a West Coast jazz session from 1957 differs from a Hard Bop session from 1959 hardly matters any more, to me anyway.

[Mark of Cenla]

Hot Ptah, thanks for the thorough and accurate explanation. Good music is good music to me, even if I do not like it. Peace and goodwill.

[bazzie]

Thanks so much Hot Ptah. What you say makes a lot of sense, and confirms my original suspicion!