Cmin7 11

[CDAN40]

Good evening, could you please telle me if this chord Cmin7 11, is the same as the one called Cmin7 add11 ?
thank you in advance / CDAN

[Bob Pearce]

Strictly speaking any 11 chord also contains the 7th and the 9th (a 13 chord contains the 7,9 and 11). However the 9th in a minor chord can be quite dissonant (depending upon voicing) so it's often dropped, leading to the min7 add11. Jazz tends to play fairly fast and loose with chord tensions so any time you see an 11 or a 13 feel free to play the lower tensions or not according to taste and voice leading considerations.

[Ken Valentino]

What Bob said sounds right to me. I just wanted to add that the reason for using the word "add" in a chord is usually to say there's not a 7 present.
m7add11 could be considered an oxymoron. Maybe there's a reason the composer felt they needed to call it that.

[michaelsorg]

The first thing that pops in my head when I see either notation of the chord is Bb Eb F, a three note shape with the 11 on top, with the whole step dissonance on top, and with NO FIFTH. This is very useful for negotiating transitions where it's not clear whether a half-dim chord should be used or a min7. Or just transitioning through a modulation between different key centers. Or when less experienced musicians are playing a tune with a half-dim chord, and aren't hitting it. I don't sound wrong, and they sound, well, less wrong!

In more dense textures i might use a "Steely Dan" voicing, Bb D Eb F clustered together (almost impossible on the guitar except where open strings are available), or a spread out voicing. In two hands, maybe in the left Eb Bb D, in the right G C F.

In classical music, the first voicing mentioned would be regarded as F7 with a suspended 4th over C in the bass. Which it really is...(and it's as old as Mozart!)

[engelbach]

Originally Posted by CDAN40

Good evening, could you please telle me if this chord Cmin7 11, is the same as the one called Cmin7 add11 ?
thank you in advance / CDAN

CDAN40,

Welcome to the AAJ Forum.

One doesn't usually see Cm7 11, but rather just Cm11. That implies a 9 as well; i.e., 1 3 5 7 9 11.

I don't agree with Bob about the dissonance of the 9. Perhaps that's a matter of perception and taste.

Cm7(add11) implies just what it says: 1 3 5 7 11, with no 9. However, I think most musicians often feel free to add the 9, especially when playing rootless voicings.

I don't agree with Ken that "add" necessarily means that there's no 7 present. Cm(add11) would imply that, but Cm7(add11) implies that there's no 9.

There are no "standard" rootless piano voicings for either of these two chords in the A/B voicing system, which only extends to 9 on minor chords.* On piano these would be more likely to be played as two-handed voicings (as in Michael's example), or as an incomplete chord in the quartals C F Bb, D G C, F Bb Eb, and G C F.

I see you've been here since October, but this is your first post. Can you say where you're from, and if you play an instrument, which one?

Cheers,
Jer

*
A Voicings
m7 = 3 5 7 9
Dom7 = 7 9 3 13
Maj69 = 3 5 6 9 or Maj7 = 3 5 7 9

B Voicings
m7 = 7 9 3 5
Dom7 = 3 13 7 9
Maj69 = 6 9 3 5 or Maj7 = 7 9 3 5

I've left off half-diminished and diminished chords and chords with alterations from this chart.

[Ken Valentino]

I can see it that way. Implying that the 9 shouldn't be used is probably what is intended by Cm7add11. So then if Cm11, Cm7add11, and Cm7 11 are all being used by the same chart then something fishy is going on, right?

[jazz oud]

Originally Posted by Ken Valentino

I can see it that way. Implying that the 9 shouldn't be used is probably what is intended by Cm7add11. So then if Cm11, Cm7add11, and Cm7 11 are all being used by the same chart then something fishy is going on, right?

Yeah, and basically one shouldn't use chord symbols to be that restrictive. If a composer or arranger has a particular voicing in mind, just write it out. Trying to guess an exact sound based on chord symbols is like trying to hammer nails with a fish.

[CDAN40]

Morning, thank you for your answers that will help me in understanding chords.I am from France, playing guitar ( Di Mauro) as a dilettante, and trying to learn Jazz. I was looking at this Cmin7 11 ,because I found some Ab7#11,Bb7#11 in a Round Midnight guitar sheet music. So I started studying the 11th chords.
CDAN

[engelbach]

Originally Posted by Ken Valentino

I can see it that way. Implying that the 9 shouldn't be used is probably what is intended by Cm7add11. So then if Cm11, Cm7add11, and Cm7 11 are all being used by the same chart then something fishy is going on, right?

Yes, it seems a bit anal retentive to try to be that fussy, unless a specific arrangement is intended, in which case it's better to write the arrangement.

To me there are two kinds of chord symbols: analytical and performance.

If one is analyzing a piece of music one wants to notate the chord symbols to reflect the actual notes being played — whether from a live performance or from a written arrangement.

As a guide to performance in a lead sheet, however, one wants to notate the chords as basically as possible for the player, keeping in mind that jazz musicians will do pretty much whatever they want anyway. If I see Bb9 it's not going to stop me from playing Bb7b9, for example.

[krooner]

Originally Posted by CDAN40

Good evening, could you please telle me if this chord Cmin7 11, is the same as the one called Cmin7 add11 ?
thank you in advance / CDAN

Could it be [now this is only a suggestion] that Cmin7 add11 suggests quartal voicing? - b7, b3, 5, tonic, 11. [ missing out the 9th ].

Kj

[edrowland]

Originally Posted by krooner

Could it be [now this is only a suggestion] that Cmin7 add11 suggests quartal voicing? - b7, b3, 5, tonic, 11. [ missing out the 9th ].

Kj

Could be. That's an interesting theory. Although plain old Cm11 also suggests a quartal voicing adequately enough, in common practice. Cm11 is the chord symbol I'd use if were calling for a quartal voicing, despite the fact that it theoretically allows for the 9th as well. But conventions for notating quartals has always been a difficult problem in Jazz practice.

Not to say that wasn't the intention of the original transcriber; just to say that I would not use that convention myself. Or expect anyone to read it that way if I did.

A question: I found Jerry's comments about whether or not the 9th can be played on a Cm11 interesting. As guitarists, we have one less finger than pianists to bring into play, so playing both the 9th and the 11 is a bit of a stretch. In practice, I wouldn't ever play a 9th on a Cm11. Or substitute Cm9. But I can't say that I've ever explored the idea either. Given the latitude we do have when playing jazz, I'm sure Cm9 as a voicing/sub for Cm11 would work at least as often as it doesn't. I'm just curious whether this is a sound I should be actively exploring. In terms of the way I would be thining and reading over the fretboard, Cm9 points toward that pretty tight tension between the 9th and m3; whereas Cm11 is quite the opposite, having the open sound of a quartal. Very different animals. Am I missing an interesting ideas here by not playing the 9th on a Cm11? Thoughts?