relative major/minor ii V I's

[Bob Budny]

Originally Posted by EdByrne

I'm still unclear how you apply these LCC scales to the melody, though, since George never enlightened me in this aspect of its application in practice.

I just posted this on the LCC forum. I hope they don't mind its repost here:

Post subject: Pan-Modal Melody, Scale Degree Modulation, SMGs
To paraphrase and explore the implications of the material in the 1959 edition, appended page E:
Quote:
Scale degree modulation is the technique uses for constructing a pan-modal melody in the parent Lydian Chromatic Scale, the one to which the melody is being related.


Scale Degree Modulation is based on the fact that each of the 12 tones of a Lydian Chromatic Scale can be one of 12 scale degrees in any of the 12 LC scales. The tonal order chart, the interactive circle of fifths, the interval chart, or chart A illustrates which scale degree that might be. For example 'E' (pc 4) is C LC iii or G LC vi. Scanning Chart A in C, we see that E occurs in LYD, LA, Lb7, AA, AD, & ADB. The 'Lydian Chromatic Order of Tonal Gravity' chart indicates that in the C LC scale, E is introduced as III at the 7-tone order. In the F LC at VII.

In addition E occurs in each of the C horizontal scales, of which their are 12 sets as well.

In Russells example (1959 pE), he uses the tonic tone of the prevailing tonality to modulate, by assigning it a position in the next predetermined horizontal scale. A good entry level strategy.

In a free interpretation for improvisational and/or compositional purposes, the modulatory tone (e.g., the 'money tone' of a melodic gesture, may be assigned to any degree of any of the 11 scales of any LC scale.

I tend to choose color tones for a gesture, e.g., to define a LYD, the 3d, #4 & 7, in addition to the tonic.

To insure a shape to the structure, it is well to keep in mind whether the modulations are moving to the flat side or the sharp side. (see chespernevins posts in this regard). For example moving the LCs to the flat side for the first 2/3s, then to the sharp side for the last 1/3, would given a nice overall shape to the piece or section. (i.e., the 'Golden Mean.')

Adding changes? Compose a melodically coherent bass line under the resultant melodic structure (or in an improvisatory situation, hire Charlie Haden). A little counterpoint could help here.

"How 'bout an example," you ask? Gulp! OK. My midi isn't hooked up, so this make take a minute. I think I'll take motherlode's advice, and start with a feeling and follow it.

(Working title: "Walking the Plank.") AAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGG.

[EdByrne]

Thanks, Bob. I look forward to a response.

[Bob Budny]

Originally Posted by EdByrne

Thanks, Bob. I look forward to a response.

I have abandoned the above, and have begun my "magnum opus" (which is a lot of pus, when you think about it). It will be true to me.

[EdByrne]

Cool. Thank you Bb.

[princeplanet]

A search brought up this 5 year old thread, but I think it didn't cover what I was after, ie, instead of using the same maj 2 5 line over the relative min 2 5, I find (in my lines at least) I prefer to alter to a maj 3rd against the V chord in the minor 2 5.

Eg, D min7 - G7 - C maj7 / Bm7b5 - E7 - Am7 . I'd usually raise the G to G# against the E7 chord. The G nat may sound like an intentional #9 against the E7 in some lines, but somehow, not mine! . Also, not real crazy about the inevitable b9 (C note) against the iim7b5.

As for the tonic minor, what's everybody's preference?

Harmonic minor? Melodic Minor? Pure Minor?? If adding just one chromatic note (ie "bebop minor scale"), would you add a b c d e f g g# a
( or Dorian): a b c d e f f# g a ?

Any other thoughts?

(EDIT ! : actually, some of my more chromatic lines, particularly using lots of chromatic enclosures, DO INDEED transpose over to minor 2 5's rather well after all! the momentary dissonances are hardly noticed, nice! )

[engelbach]

Originally Posted by princeplanet

A search brought up this 5 year old thread, but I think it didn't cover what I was after, ie, instead of using the same maj 2 5 line over the relative min 2 5, I find (in my lines at least) I prefer to alter to a maj 3rd against the V chord in the minor 2 5.

Eg, D min7 - G7 - C maj7 / Bm7b5 - E7 - Am7 . I'd usually raise the G to G# against the E7 chord. The G nat may sound like an intentional #9 against the E7 in some lines, but somehow, not mine! . Also, not real crazy about the inevitable b9 (C note) against the iim7b5.

As for the tonic minor, what's everybody's preference?

Harmonic minor? Melodic Minor? Pure Minor?? If adding just one chromatic note (ie "bebop minor scale"), would you add a b c d e f g g# a
( or Dorian): a b c d e f f# g a ?

Any other thoughts?

(EDIT ! : actually, some of my more chromatic lines, particularly using lots of chromatic enclosures, DO INDEED transpose over to minor 2 5's rather well after all! the momentary dissonances are hardly noticed, nice! )

Interesting thread to revive.

The b9 against a ø chord sounds fine to me. It's a melody note, not an addition to the chord. A IIIø chord is a rootless V9; i.e., Dø is a rootless Bb9, against which an Eb melody note is only an "avoid" if it's held against the chord.

However, in some cases I can see adding a b9 to a ø chord. A b9 sounds pretty bad in an ordinary m7 chord because of the tritone between 5 and b9. In a ø chord the b5 eliminates the tritone.

Over the E7 in your example one can play either G natural or G#, or both. Why do you think the G doesn't sound like an intentional #9 in your lines? (Or did you cover this in your edit?)

I have no preferences with a tonic minor. One can move in and out of the different minor modes at will, even in the same measure.

Cheers,
Jer

[princeplanet]

Originally Posted by engelbach

Interesting thread to revive.

The b9 against a ø chord sounds fine to me. It's a melody note, not an addition to the chord. A IIIø chord is a rootless V9; i.e., Dø is a rootless Bb9, against which an Eb melody note is only an "avoid" if it's held against the chord.

However, in some cases I can see adding a b9 to a ø chord. A b9 sounds pretty bad in an ordinary m7 chord because of the tritone between 5 and b9. In a ø chord the b5 eliminates the tritone.

Over the E7 in your example one can play either G natural or G#, or both. Why do you think the G doesn't sound like an intentional #9 in your lines? (Or did you cover this in your edit?)

I have no preferences with a tonic minor. One can move in and out of the different minor modes at will, even in the same measure.

Cheers,
Jer

When spelling out an E7 or rootless E9 arp with no chromatic embellishment the lack of the G# sounded conspicuous. But, the more I play other lines that contain chromaticism, the more I'm digging this concept. Basically lines using G mixo bebop for Bm7b5 and C maj bebop for E7b9 and Am seem to work fine.

Do you think I'd sound too boring if I did this often? And would it be too bland of me to choose to never play an F# against the Am in this context?

[michaelsorg]

Originally Posted by princeplanet

When spelling out an E7 or rootless E9 arp with no chromatic embellishment the lack of the G# sounded conspicuous. But, the more I play other lines that contain chromaticism, the more I'm digging this concept. Basically lines using G mixo bebop for Bm7b5 and C maj bebop for E7b9 and Am seem to work fine.

Do you think I'd sound too boring if I did this often? And would it be too bland of me to choose to never play an F# against the Am in this context?

I don't see why A melodic minor or A dorian can't work over C major, but I agree that C major bebop is the smoothest scale for either major or minor. Here an example of both, once as major, once as minor:


MIDI rendition: http://michael-sorg.com/ii-V-I-vii-III7-vi-parallels.mid




The concept is an interesting one, and I think there is something to be learned from it. I wrote a tune, somewhat around this concept, using modes of melodic minor. It dictates the use of melodic minor in ways you might not be used to: melodic minor of ii on the ii, the melodic minor of IV on the V, vi melodic mi over I (well-known, but still sparingly used, I think). Anyway here's a link to that original thread: http://forums.allaboutjazz.com/showthread.php?t=52121

[princeplanet]

Wow, your link down the bottom shows you've really thought this through! I was hoping there was a midi player for it as well, so I could hear it (too lazy to sight read it for guitar...).

As for the response example, I'm surprised how the g# is so smooth against C maj, but still find MM use of F# (as opposed to Dorian context) to be "not my thing"....

[michaelsorg]

Originally Posted by princeplanet

Wow, your link down the bottom shows you've really thought this through! I was hoping there was a midi player for it as well, so I could hear it (too lazy to sight read it for guitar...).

As for the response example, I'm surprised how the g# is so smooth against C maj, but still find MM use of F# (as opposed to Dorian context) to be "not my thing"....

There is audio for the linked example with an embedded player, but if you're using a smart phone (or iPad maybe?), it may not load with the page. Here's a direct link: http://michael-sorg.com/NeckandNeck.mp3


As far as the G#goes, if it resolves to A, it doesn't have to be a tense sound. The F#, same thing - just a matter of acclimatization.