Internalising concepts

[josh]

Hey all

So I decided I want to be able to incorporate fourths into my solos. But how do you go around becoming more proficient at something like that? My understanding is that patterns are the way to go (eg fourth ascending, descending, alternating ascending and descending etc)...but correct me if I'm wrong.

This poses another issue - once you've internalised patterns, how do you use a particular concept (eg lines using fourths) in a spontaneous, creative way?

Cheers

Josh

[Fred]

If you lay 4 intervals of a fourth on top of eachother you obtain the scale of an unhemitonic pentatonic.
i.e. e a d g c = c d e g a

For that reason it´s a good thing to start working with unhemitonic pentatonic scales, when creating melodies involving intervals of fourths.

[engelbach]

Originally Posted by josh

Hey all

So I decided I want to be able to incorporate fourths into my solos. But how do you go around becoming more proficient at something like that? My understanding is that patterns are the way to go (eg fourth ascending, descending, alternating ascending and descending etc)...but correct me if I'm wrong.

This poses another issue - once you've internalised patterns, how do you use a particular concept (eg lines using fourths) in a spontaneous, creative way?

Cheers

Josh

By fourths do you mean quartals; i.e., chords built in fourths?

Or do you mean fourths intervals in your melodic line?

[Ken Valentino]

In soloing or melodies an interval of a perfect 4th is a very simple connection. Usually the ear will try to hear it as a 5 and 1, but nothing is always.

If in the key of G listen to the effect that a C to a G has. Usually this will cause a conflict. Now play F C G and see If anything changed in the way G sounded. Quartal harmony works from a double negative strategy. Really the only thing wrong with a 4 is that it's simpler than the 1. By doing its 4 you've evened out the competition.
On the other hand if you use the interval in a positive way 5-1 but keep doing everyone's 5 it dilutes its power. So G to C would usually sound like the key of C, but F# B E A D G C is ambiguous from the same move over and over.

The goal is to organize and remember the sounds. All of the above is useful if you know that it's going to turn out that way.

[josh]

Hey all, thanks for the advice! engelbach: I meant fourth intervals in melodic lines.

[michaelsorg]

One pattern that sounds nice is just playing through diatonic modes with quartal trichords. Given Cmaj7#11, you could start (ascending) with E A D, F# B E, G C F#, A D G, B E A, C F# B, D G C. Notice I didn't leave out the instances where a tritone is formed. Those are the coolest chords (arpeggios) of all! Over a Dm7, you could start right on the root: D G C, E A D, etc. through Dorian.

So far I've given ascending patterns, but descending is great too, Over G mixolydian try: (desc.) G D A, F C G, E B F, D A E, C G D, B F C, A E B.

A beautiful tune which exploits 4ths, but isn't modern at all is "Exactly Like You." If you haven't learned that one yet, check it out!

[engelbach]

Originally Posted by michaelsorg

A beautiful tune which exploits 4ths, but isn't modern at all is "Exactly Like You." If you haven't learned that one yet, check it out!

Thanks, Michael. Good suggestion.

[jazzygramps]

A beautiful tune which exploits 4ths, but isn't modern at all is "Exactly Like You." If you haven't learned that one yet, check it out![/QUOTE]

Thanks for the suggestion. I found Diana Krall doing this on YT and fell in love. Chart is now on my music stand.

[michaelsorg]

Another pretty tune using fourths (also from a bygone era): "Jitterbug Waltz" by Fats Waller. http://youtu.be/9HjAqp_F1M8 Played here by the fabulous Dick Hyman on piano.

[michaelsorg]

And now a modern tune using 4ths (well. if not new, as hip as ever!): Freedom Jazz Dance by Eddie Harris.
And a very hip recording on YouTube: http://youtu.be/bG8wEzl2qCk

[Fred]

Michael,

in Freedom Jazzdance, the first bar, isn´t it
eb g c f d bb g f instead of
eb g c f d bb f d ?

Another tune containing fourth is McCoys Passion Dance.

[txh003]

The following resource might be beneficial to you:

Technique Development in Fourths for Jazz Improvisation (Ramon Ricker Jazz Improvisation Series)

Please note that I do not own the product, but merely pointing it out in an effort to be helpful.

[michaelsorg]

Originally Posted by Fred

Michael,

in Freedom Jazzdance, the first bar, isn´t it
eb g c f d bb g f instead of
eb g c f d bb f d ?

Another tune containing fourth is McCoys Passion Dance.

Hi Fred,
I just checked out Joe Henderson, he played it the way this chart was written, but I'm sure there might be a couple of versions floating around...

[JoeB]

Originally Posted by michaelsorg

...but I'm sure there might be a couple of versions floating around...

The thing that most surprised me about "Freedom Jazz Dance" when I looked into various versions about four years ago was how Eddie Harris originally played the head phrases in 8 measures rather than the 12 measures shown in the chart Michael posted. And how a basic funky melodic figure was laid under the whole recording (essentially notes D, Eb, E, F, each under a Bb note, first in the piano then picked up by the horns).

I think the chart Michael posted is from the New Real Book 2, which is more how Miles did it on "Miles Smiles", which put this tune on the map. Of course Herbie really took the chords out. To get an idea of the Eddie Harris original phrasing, remove measures 3, 4, 7 and 8 (which are mostly rests). Miles also doubled the number of measures after the last phrase to get back to the top than Eddie Harris originally had.

It seems like most versions you hear have the extra bars - I remember hearing versions by Eddie Jefferson, Ron Holloway, it's even on a Bill Cosby album. Whoever does it on Bill Cosby's album kind of harkens back to the original funky Eddie Harris piano comping part, then takes it out like Miles.

[michaelsorg]

Originally Posted by JoeB

The thing that most surprised me about "Freedom Jazz Dance" when I looked into various versions about four years ago was how Eddie Harris originally played the head phrases in 8 measures rather than the 12 measures shown in the chart Michael posted. And how a basic funky melodic figure was laid under the whole recording (essentially notes D, Eb, E, F, each under a Bb note, first in the piano then picked up by the horns).

I think the chart Michael posted is from the New Real Book 2, which is more how Miles did it on "Miles Smiles", which put this tune on the map. Of course Herbie really took the chords out. To get an idea of the Eddie Harris original phrasing, remove measures 3, 4, 7 and 8 (which are mostly rests). Miles also doubled the number of measures after the last phrase to get back to the top than Eddie Harris originally had.

It seems like most versions you hear have the extra bars - I remember hearing versions by Eddie Jefferson, Ron Holloway, it's even on a Bill Cosby album. Whoever does it on Bill Cosby's album kind of harkens back to the original funky Eddie Harris piano comping part, then takes it out like Miles.

Thanks, Joe. Yeah, I couldn't find the original version on the Web, but I have played it that way.
Here's a link to one of my tunes which uses one of my favorite 4th devices (I confess to having used it in more than one of my tunes). I use a quartal trichord ascending, then go up a minor third, do the same, up a minor third, same, and once more. That takes you through the entire cycle of fourths and has an upward motion instead of the usual downward motion of 4th, 5th, 4th, 5th.
http://michael-sorg.com/Leverage.mp3

Sorry, it's just a MIDI demo, and has some empty comping for blowing practice.