Question: VII7 -- Imaj7

[MaxShlochz]

Hi, I'm new here and I've learned theory mostly out of the internet so excuse me if I misinterpret something.

My question is about a progression of VII7 - Imaj7, such as B7 -- Cmaj7,
I've seen it in a couple of tunes and I've used myself and it sounds good, and I wanted to ask from where is it derived from?

Why is it "correct"?

[custard apple]

Welcome Max.
That's a good question.
You don't need to think about your example in terms of a progression.
It sounds good because the target tone is approached from a half-step below.
It can also sound good from:
a) a whole step below
b) a half step above
c) a whole step above

[Fred]

Originally Posted by MaxShlochz

My question is about a progression of VII7 - Imaj7, such as B7 -- Cmaj7,
I've seen it in a couple of tunes and I've used myself and it sounds good, and I wanted to ask from where is it derived from?

VII7 actually is a secondary dominant called V7/IIIm7.
Its exspected resolution is a fifth down to the III degree of the tonality. In your example the exspected resolution would be Em7.
In the key of E minor however CMA7 is the bVI degree. Resolving this secondary dominant chord V7/IIIm7 to the bVI degree of the implied key instead of his tonic is a classical deceptiv resolution which is very commun.
V7/IIIm7 sounds most straightforward with a b9 and b13 in the chordscale.

[michaelsorg]

Originally Posted by Fred

VII7 actually is a secondary dominant called V7/IIIm7.
Its exspected resolution is a fifth down to the III degree of the tonality. In your example the exspected resolution would be Em7.
In the key of E minor however CMA7 is the bVI degree. Resolving this secondary dominant chord V7/IIIm7 to the bVI degree of the implied key instead of his tonic is a classical deceptiv resolution which is very commun.
V7/IIIm7 sounds most straightforward with a b9 and b13 in the chordscale.

I second all that has been said here and add another aspect of chord substitution that may be at work, depending somewhat on how the chord is voiced. Often that B7 may be augmented, I.e. B7#5. This has the same notes as a G9#5, so it can be considered a substitute by major 3rd for G7+, and that works for Eb7+ as well, though that is more effective resolving to C/E or Em7 than to C in root position.

If the natural 5th is present in the B7 and say, the b9, then it has more the chromatic approach aspect mentioned by custard apple (in addition to Fred's V7/iii explanation). It's very similar to Co7 moving to Cmaj.

[MaxShlochz]

Originally Posted by Fred

VII7 actually is a secondary dominant called V7/IIIm7.
Its exspected resolution is a fifth down to the III degree of the tonality. In your example the exspected resolution would be Em7.
In the key of E minor however CMA7 is the bVI degree. Resolving this secondary dominant chord V7/IIIm7 to the bVI degree of the implied key instead of his tonic is a classical deceptiv resolution which is very commun.
V7/IIIm7 sounds most straightforward with a b9 and b13 in the chordscale.

I really like your explanation, I've never thought about the tonic chord Em7, thanks, now it make a lot of sense.

Though I have one more thing that I must ask to brighten up a bit,

Originally Posted by custard apple

Welcome Max.
That's a good question.
You don't need to think about your example in terms of a progression.
It sounds good because the target tone is approached from a half-step below.
It can also sound good from:
a) a whole step below
b) a half step above
c) a whole step above

When you say that we can approach the target tone by the ways: a, b and c, as you mentioned - do you mean all of these subs?
a) Cmaj7 -- Fm7 -- Bb7(whole step below) -- Cmaj7, the backdoor progression, I believe.
b) Cmaj7 -- Abm7 -- Db7 -- Cmaj7, the tritone sub.
c) Cmaj7 -- Am7 -- D7 -- Cmaj7

And if they are, can you explain c?
Because I can't understand the logic in going from a D7 to Cmaj7.

[JoeB]

Originally Posted by MaxShlochz

Because I can't understand the logic in going from a D7 to Cmaj7.

When D7 resolves to Cmaj7 it is classified as a special function dominant (II7), meaning it is a dominant chord type (a dominant 7th chord) but it does not have dominant function (resolving to a chord down either a perfect fifth or a half step).

A big part of the effectiveness of II7 for me is that the root of the following I chord is in a place where you really want to hear a tonic root. In the case of D7 to Cmaj7, the tritone actually behaves the same way as D7 resolving to G; the F# moves up one-half step to G and the C moves down one-half step to B.

With a G chord, the G note is the root and the B note is the 3rd. With a C chord, the G note is the 5th and the B note is the major 7th. The root movement really makes the difference.

Whatever the logic, when handled correctly II7 to I just plain sounds good.

[MaxShlochz]

Originally Posted by JoeB

When D7 resolves to Cmaj7 it is classified as a special function dominant (II7), meaning it is a dominant chord type (a dominant 7th chord) but it does not have dominant function (resolving to a chord down either a perfect fifth or a half step).

A big part of the effectiveness of II7 for me is that the root of the following I chord is in a place where you really want to hear a tonic root. In the case of D7 to Cmaj7, the tritone actually behaves the same way as D7 resolving to G; the F# moves up one-half step to G and the C moves down one-half step to B.

With a G chord, the G note is the root and the B note is the 3rd. With a C chord, the G note is the 5th and the B note is the major 7th. The root movement really makes the difference.

Whatever the logic, when handled correctly II7 to I just plain sounds good.

Yes, now it much more understandable, thanks for the explanation.
I'm really glad I joined this forum and I can get my questions answered to and not wait for some miracle.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by JoeB

When D7 resolves to Cmaj7 it is classified as a special function dominant (II7), meaning it is a dominant chord type (a dominant 7th chord) but it does not have dominant function (resolving to a chord down either a perfect fifth or a half step).

A big part of the effectiveness of II7 for me is that the root of the following I chord is in a place where you really want to hear a tonic root. In the case of D7 to Cmaj7, the tritone actually behaves the same way as D7 resolving to G; the F# moves up one-half step to G and the C moves down one-half step to B.

With a G chord, the G note is the root and the B note is the 3rd. With a C chord, the G note is the 5th and the B note is the major 7th. The root movement really makes the difference.

Whatever the logic, when handled correctly II7 to I just plain sounds good.

Good explanation Joe!
The derivation of II7 could be made with #IVm7(b5) resolving to I/5th just because both chords, II7 and #IVm7(b5) have the same tritone.



But still, if the harmonic rhythm isn´t correct it could be heard like -->



In the following example however I would hear it as an II7, a dominant without dominant function.



Do you remember some standard tunes including this situation?

[JoeB]

And to make things even more interesting, in addition to to sharing a tritone with #IVm7b5, II7 shares a tritone with bVI7. The difference between D7 and F#m7b5 is that F#m7b5 has a E note rather than a D note, so they are very closely related.

The bVI7 (Ab7 in the key of C) shares the same tritone and has additional chromatic voice movement that gives it special functionality when resolving to I/5 or I. Berklee traces this to 19th century chromatic harmony where for Ab7 the Gb note (technically F#) moves up one-half step to G and the Ab moves down one-half step to G (so resolving to C/G). We have now become accustomed to Ab7 resolving directly to C.

Because bVI7 has the bVI note of the key (Ab note in the key of C) it also has subdominant minor (SDM) characteristics. But since the b7 note of VI7 (Gb for Ab7) is not in the parallel natural minor key (Cm in our example here), bVI7 is said to have altered subdominant minor functionality.

Via common tones and resolution tendencies, II7 is related to the subdominant area, but because of the chromatic alteration is said to have altered subdominant functionality.

I usually find II7 most effective later in a tune's section, where either the chord expection is I or the melody is most happy with a I chord. One example I can think of is "My Favorite Things". But II7 can also show up early; an example of this I can think of is "Limehouse Blues".

Another interesting resolution of II7 is to IV or IVm (just like #IVm7b5). I can't think of any jazz standard right now that does this, but it has been common in pop/rock tunes since the Beatles. "Eight Days A Week" I think was the first example. I used to know of an even earlier tune from the 50's but can't remember the artist or title right now. I'll try to dig that up.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by JoeB

Berklee traces this to 19th century chromatic harmony where for Ab7 the Gb note (technically F#) moves up one-half step to G and the Ab moves down one-half step to G (so resolving to C/G).

The so called "Augmented sixth chord".

Originally Posted by JoeB

We have now become accustomed to Ab7 resolving directly to C.

As heard in "Bye Bye Blues" or "Star Trek".
I love this movement!

Originally Posted by JoeB

I usually find II7 most effective later in a tune's section, where either the chord expection is I or the melody is most happy with a I chord. One example I can think of is "My Favorite Things".

I can not find it. In which bar do you see the II7 --> I movement?

Originally Posted by JoeB

But II7 can also show up early; an example of this I can think of is "Limehouse Blues".

Thank you.

Originally Posted by JoeB

"Eight Days A Week" I think was the first example.

Also a good example illustrating the II7.

[Jeff Brent]

Root motion is the most important factor in chord progressions. Where a B7 resolves to C, the root of the B7 chord is acting as the leading tone to the C root (it doesn't matter if the C is the tonic or not).


Also:

A II(7)-I cadence is borrowed parallel harmony from the Lydian mode (II-I is the most common cadence in Lydian).

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Jeff Brent

Root motion is the most important factor in chord progressions. Where a B7 resolves to C, the root of the B7 chord is acting as the leading tone to the C root (it doesn't matter if the C is the tonic or not).

Shure, but somehow there is a difference between the deceptive resolution of V7/IIIm7 in the following example

|| CMA7 Am7 |F#m7(b5) B7(b9) | CMA7 etc...


and VII7 as a special function dominant like in

Originally Posted by Jeff Brent

A II(7)-I cadence is borrowed parallel harmony from the Lydian mode (II-I is the most common cadence in Lydian).

Nice cross-reference!

[JoeB]

Originally Posted by Fred

The so called "Augmented sixth chord".

As heard in "Bye Bye Blues" or "Star Trek".
I love this movement!

Yes, another example I like is "Out Of Nowhere". The classical analysis of augmented sixth chords gets involved; I've seen the flavor of augmented sixth chord that has the same notes enharmonically as bVI7 referred to as German when it resolves to V and English when it resolves to I!

Originally Posted by Fred

I can not find it. In which bar do you see the II7 --> I movement?

Towards the end of the song. We have already shimmered between Em and G, visited E, got more involved with Em, and now are optimistically heading for a G ending:

 Em7            | Em7/D           | Cmaj7          |               |
   When I'm       feel - ing        sad,                         I    

 Cmaj7          |                 | A7             |               |
 sim - ply re -   mem - ber my      fa - vor - ite   things,   and

 Gmaj7          | Cmaj7           | Am7            | D7            | G6    |
 then I don't     feel                               so              bad.

Notice how the majority of the title ("favorite things") falls right on the II7. This tune is pure genius.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by JoeB

Yes, another example I like is "Out Of Nowhere".

Thank you for that example.

Originally Posted by JoeB

The classical analysis of augmented sixth chords gets involved; I've seen the flavor of augmented sixth chord that has the same notes enharmonically as bVI7 referred to as German when it resolves to V and English when it resolves to I!

I am astonished how they distinguish between Italian, French and German! --> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augmented_sixth_chord

Originally Posted by JoeB

Towards the end of the song. We have already shimmered between Em and G, visited E, got more involved with Em, and now are optimistically heading for a G ending:

 Em7            | Em7/D           | Cmaj7          |               |
   When I'm       feel - ing        sad,                         I    

 Cmaj7          |                 | A7             |               |
 sim - ply re -   mem - ber my      fa - vor - ite   things,   and

 Gmaj7          | Cmaj7           | Am7            | D7             | G6    |
 then I don't     feel                               so               bad.

Notice how the majority of the title ("favorite things") falls right on the II7. This tune is pure genius.

I am fascinated about your last sentence/conclusion.
It happened that I did re-harmonize this tune and for that reason could not realize at first sight what you ment. Key is E Minor -->

[JoeB]

Originally Posted by Jeff Brent

A II(7)-I cadence is borrowed parallel harmony from the Lydian mode

Not for II7. The special functionality will almost always prevent hearing this as borrowed from Lydian.

The II triad is a characteristic chord for Lydian, but II7 is an avoid chord when trying to establish the mode.