Question: VII7 -- Imaj7

[Fred]

Originally Posted by JoeB

but II7 is an avoid chord when trying to establish the mode.

Of course - because II7 would provoce a tendency toward the relative ionian mode. II is the better choice than II7 to cadence in lydian mode.

[Jeff Brent]

Originally Posted by MaxShlochz

c) Cmaj7 -- Am7 -- D7 -- Cmaj7

can you explain c?
Because I can't understand the logic in going from a D7 to Cmaj7.

Originally Posted by Jeff Brent

A II(7)-I cadence is borrowed parallel harmony from the Lydian mode (II-I is the most common cadence in Lydian).

Originally Posted by JoeB

The II triad is a characteristic chord for Lydian, but II7 is an avoid chord when trying to establish the mode.

That is certainly true - From "Modalogy" pg 37:

The II7-I cadence is "a rarity in Lydian progressions. Most typically, only the II major triad is used as the primary cadential chord in the Lydian".

However, in the OP's original query, it does not appear to me that "establishing the Lydian mode" is the crux of the question. In this situation, he appears to be asking "How is it that a II7 can be used as a cadential chord?"

The Lydian is the only diatonic mode that can be borrowed from that that contains a II7. There is no other mode in the Ionian set that possesses a II7 (and it's definitely not acting as a secondary dominant).

Granted, the tritone is obviously non-functional (otherwise it would gravitate towards some kind of G).

While the II7-I cadence is a rarity in Lydian progressions, this is not, per se, a Lydian progression - it's simply about one chord borrowed from the Lydian to make a cadence in what appears to be an otherwise vanilla major progression.

In addition, the b7 of the II7 chord is identical to the tonic root, so that note can just as easily be regarded as an anticipation.

We all agree that it works. "Why?" is another matter.

[jazz oud]

I humbly suggest that in much jazz and rock music, a non-dominant-functioning II7 chord may be more likely to be borrowing from the blues than from Lydian, as the characteristic note is the b5 of the key. Certainly I think the Beatles' use cited fits into this category.

[JoeB]

Originally Posted by Jeff Brent

That is certainly true - From "Modalogy" pg 37:

The II7-I cadence is "a rarity in Lydian progressions. Most typically, only the II major triad is used as the primary cadential chord in the Lydian".

However, in the OP's original query, it does not appear to me that "establishing the Lydian mode" is the crux of the question. In this situation, he appears to be asking "How is it that a II7 can be used as a cadential chord?"

The Lydian is the only diatonic mode that can be borrowed from that that contains a II7. There is no other mode in the Ionian set that possesses a II7 (and it's definitely not acting as a secondary dominant).

Granted, the tritone is obviously non-functional (otherwise it would gravitate towards some kind of G).

While the II7-I cadence is a rarity in Lydian progressions, this is not, per se, a Lydian progression - it's simply about one chord borrowed from the Lydian to make a cadence in what appears to be an otherwise vanilla major progression.

In addition, the b7 of the II7 chord is identical to the tonic root, so that note can just as easily be regarded as an anticipation.

We all agree that it works. "Why?" is another matter.

So you intially said "A II(7)-I cadence is borrowed parallel harmony from the Lydian mode". I'm glad to see that your own book says there really is no such Lydian II7 - I cadence. Now you are saying that you are only borrowing the II7 chord built from the Lydian scale. But I still don't see how that helps explain why II7 resolves to I in a tonal setting.

Borrowing a chord from one mode to use in the harmonic context of another mode is modal interchange. In modal interchange, the borrowed chord implies its parent mode's sound without modulating to the mode. The dominant chord built on II usually functions as V7/V. As you know, that does not work in Lydian because you have Vmaj7 which when preceded by its dominant chord will sound like I, and then the previous Lydian I will sound like IV. The other usual functionality for the dominant chord built on II is II7 and you agree there is no II7 - I Lydian cadence. But in addition, because of II dominant's V7/V or II7 functionality, II7 will almost never be heard even as a modal interchange chord.

These kinds of issues are why I and many others see no need to drag modal harmony (meaning Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, and Locrian) into tonal analysis. Modal harmony does not include subdominant and dominant categories; each mode has one rooted tonic chord and the other chords are non-tonic. Therefore I generally don't find it helpful to use the modes mentioned when trying to explain why certain chords sound good in a tonal setting.

A diatonic chord can be chromatically altered to produce a non-functional dominant 7th chord simply to produce a brighter effect. The chromatic alteration does not have to change the basic tonal functionality. In the case of II7, it is an altered subdominant chord and likes to subdominantly cadence to the tonic I chord. I find this a completely satisfactory answer to the "why".

As far as the root note when used with the II chord, there are nice ways to handle it that will keep the mode Lydian. For example, in C Lydian playing a D triad over a C triad will produce the sound of an extended C chord. Once you voice the II chord so that it is heard as II7 though, you'll be transported right out of Lydian.

[Jeff Brent]

Tonal cadences are circular (V-I, IV-I), including tritone subs.

The strongest modal cadences are stepwise motion (VII-I, II-I).

The stepwise root motion (II-I) in the C - Am - D7 - C progression indicates, at the very least, a tip of the hat towards a modal cadence.

When playing a two-chord Lydian jam with Cmaj and Dmaj in the bottom, using the C Lydian scale as fodder for improvisation, playing an accented C melody note over the Dmaj (thus creating a D7) does not send one "out of the Lydian".

The Lydian mode hovers in a relatively delicate balance though, and is easily disrupted - as opposed to the tonal major which exerts such a strong, virtually relentless pull.

If one has a tonal string of chords that are clearly gravitating towards a major tonic, one can easily throw in almost any curve ball for the penultimate chord and the ear will still expect to hear the tonic major next.

Considering that the jazz improviser's choice of an 11 to play over that final tonic major is the #11, it would seem that a presumption of Lydian "borrowing" is not out of line for this penultimate chord also - in this context.


While the II7-I cadence in Lydian is a rarity, the word "rarity" does not mean "never".

[jazz oud]

Originally Posted by Jeff Brent

The Lydian mode hovers in a relatively delicate balance though, and is easily disrupted - as opposed to the tonal major which exerts such a strong, virtually relentless pull.

Careful . . . a statement like that could begin a discussion over whether Lydian is or is not the foundational scale of music. We know where that discussion leads.

[JoeB]

Originally Posted by Jeff Brent

When playing a two-chord Lydian jam with Cmaj and Dmaj in the bottom, using the C Lydian scale as fodder for improvisation, playing an accented C melody note over the Dmaj (thus creating a D7) does not send one "out of the Lydian".

...

While the II7-I cadence in Lydian is a rarity, the word "rarity" does not mean "never".

I got tired of writing "almost never", "if ever", etc. There can always be exceptions. Effective modal writing involves aspects such as harmonic rhythm, register, melodic motifs, etc. But for our purpose here we are discussing typical use of II7 as it appears in tonal tunes - usually on a stronger beat, of longer duration, etc.

Here's a simple example:

Cmaj7 | D | Cmaj7 | Bm7 | Cmaj7 | D | Cmaj7 / / Gmaj7 |

Play a nice little melodic idea through these chords using some notes from C Lydian (C, D, E, F#, G, A, B). As you say, play a C melody note on the D if you like; it can sound like the mode's root note rather than D's b7 depending on how you handle it. So we have a nice little Lydian tune. Notice the handling of the Vmaj7 (Gmaj7) characteristic/avoid chord; the harmonic rhythm of one weak beat does not disrupt the Lydian flow.

Now try this:

Cmaj7 | D | Cmaj7 | Bm7 | Cmaj7 | D7 | Gmaj7 |

Most people will expect to hear Gmaj7 following the D7 and then hear it as Imaj7 in G Major rather than Vmaj7 in C Lydian, and once that happens you've lost that Lydian feeling.

[jazz oud]

Originally Posted by JoeB

you've lost that Lydian feeling.

One of my favorite songs.

[JoeB]

Originally Posted by jazz oud

I humbly suggest that in much jazz and rock music, a non-dominant-functioning II7 chord may be more likely to be borrowing from the blues than from Lydian, as the characteristic note is the b5 of the key.

That's an interesting theory, JO. Can you elaborate on that a bit? In addition to the b5, does this have any relation to your post in another thread explaining the difference between the blue b7 and the Mixolydian b7? Does W. A. Mathieu have anything to say about II7?

In fairness to Jeff, the "II7 is borrowed from Lydian" theory I think was/is also more recently taught in some classes at Berklee. This theory goes something like this: since II7 does not contain the 4th note of the scale, it is not subdominant or dominant. It doesn't contain b6, so it isn't subdominant minor. And it is not tonic. Since modal theory defines only tonic and non-tonic functionality, you fall back and say it is a non-tonic chord from a modal source, in this case Lydian. But then they also state that there is no resolution tendency.

The "II7 is altered subdominant" theory I prefer (and can hear in many tonal tunes) is based on the way Berklee taught it back in the older days (maybe based on Schillinger theory?).

[jazz oud]

Originally Posted by JoeB

That's an interesting theory, JO. Can you elaborate on that a bit? In addition to the b5, does this have any relation to your post in another thread explaining the difference between the blue b7 and the Mixolydian b7? Does W. A. Mathieu have anything to say about II7?

In fairness to Jeff, the "II7 is borrowed from Lydian" theory I think was/is also more recently taught in some classes at Berklee. This theory goes something like this: since II7 does not contain the 4th note of the scale, it is not subdominant or dominant. It doesn't contain b6, so it isn't subdominant minor. And it is not tonic. Since modal theory defines only tonic and non-tonic functionality, you can fall back and say it is a non-tonic chord from a modal source, in this case Lydian. But then they also state that there is no resolution tendency.

The "II7 is altered subdominant" theory I prefer (and can hear in many tonal tunes) is based on the way Berklee taught it back in the older days (maybe based on Schillinger theory?).

In some cases, II7 is obviously a secondary dominant, whether it resolves that way or not. I understand that some Berklee theory teachers advocate a distinction between color dominants and functioning dominants (a distinction I agree with in some cases), and we may have legitimate disagreements about where to draw the line. For instance, I regard the first III7 in "Sunny Side of the Street" as a secondary dominant, even though it resolves deceptively. I had a rather spirited discussion with a Berklee teacher who considered it a color dominant, not a functional dominant. It comes down to how one hears it.

In my opinion, a modal sound requires that the mode be clearly established. In tunes that have otherwise tonal function, a II7 at best very ambiguously might suggest a Lydian sound (relative to the key). In my book, that means it's not Lydian, since by (my) definition modality should be unambiguous.
Something like bIImaj7#11 can suggest Phrygian, because that chord has no tonal function and only occurs in Phrygian. In the case of II7, you have competing possibilities, which to me decreases the likelihood that it is perceived as clearly Lydian.


When I hear a non-resolving II7 in the Beatles, it usually is followed or preceded by some other blues-oriented harmony (like IV7), and doesn't sound like a secondary dominant to me, but just an extension of the blues flavor.

Sometimes II7 just sounds like II7, which is what I think you are getting at with the term "altered subdominant".

These are all generalities, and it comes down to how one hears it . . . I think there is a lot of room for personal interpretation.

Regarding the "blue 7th" idea, I don't think it relates to II7 in a direct way, but has some influence due to the general association of non-functioningM(m7) chords with the blues. I don't recall Mathieu discussing this, but it may be in there somewhere . . .

[michaelsorg]

Originally Posted by jazz oud

In some cases, II7 is obviously a secondary dominant, whether it resolves that way or not. I understand that some Berklee theory teachers advocate a distinction between color dominants and functioning dominants (a distinction I agree with in some cases), and we may have legitimate disagreements about where to draw the line. For instance, I regard the first III7 in "Sunny Side of the Street" as a secondary dominant, even though it resolves deceptively. I had a rather spirited discussion with a Berklee teacher who considered it a color dominant, not a functional dominant. It comes down to how one hears it.

In my opinion, a modal sound requires that the mode be clearly established. In tunes that have otherwise tonal function, a II7 at best very ambiguously might suggest a Lydian sound (relative to the key). In my book, that means it's not Lydian, since by (my) definition modality should be unambiguous.
Something like bIImaj7#11 can suggest Phrygian, because that chord has no tonal function and only occurs in Phrygian. In the case of II7, you have competing possibilities, which to me decreases the likelihood that it is perceived as clearly Lydian.


When I hear a non-resolving II7 in the Beatles, it usually is followed or preceded by some other blues-oriented harmony (like IV7), and doesn't sound like a secondary dominant to me, but just an extension of the blues flavor.

Sometimes II7 just sounds like II7, which is what I think you are getting at with the term "altered subdominant".

These are all generalities, and it comes down to how one hears it . . . I think there is a lot of room for personal interpretation.

Regarding the "blue 7th" idea, I don't think it relates to II7 in a direct way, but has some influence due to the general association of non-functioningM(m7) chords with the blues. I don't recall Mathieu discussing this, but it may be in there somewhere . . .

I agree that there are a lot of colors and possibilities for a II chord, whether dominant or just a major triad. But I'd like to see someone post a progression where it doesn't actually lead in the course of the next 4 bars (in 4/4 time) to a V - I. There certainly are a few exceptions, I know, but only a few. I think, within a normal tonal context, that it is nearly always V/V even when the V is quite delayed and the closing chord sequence greatly extended. And even in those exceptions when the chord of resolution is a I in root position, I think the effect is one of an abbreviated II7 - V7 - I, the V7/V being so strong that even when V is omitted, the effect is still retained.

[michaelsorg]

Originally Posted by michaelsorg

I agree that there are a lot of colors and possibilities for a II chord, whether dominant or just a major triad. But I'd like to see someone post a progression where it doesn't actually lead in the course of the next 4 bars (in 4/4 time) to a V - I. There certainly are a few exceptions, I know, but only a few. I think, within a normal tonal context, that it is nearly always V/V even when the V is quite delayed and the closing chord sequence greatly extended. And even in those exceptions when the chord of resolution is a I in root position, I think the effect is one of an abbreviated II7 - V7 - I, the V7/V being so strong that even when V is omitted, the effect is still retained.

One exception that just popped into my head is Sea of Love from 1954. It goes to the II7 twice in the A section without ever hitting V before the cadence. But that sets up a kind of tension which is released in the B section, which starts with the V (some people call B the "release"!). I think whether consciously or unconsciously, we always want to hear V, and even when it's left out, we hear it. It comes from centuries of usage in classical (where the V was also often delayed with great effect).

[Fred]

Originally Posted by michaelsorg

But I'd like to see someone post a progression where it doesn't actually lead in the course of the next 4 bars (in 4/4 time) to a V - I.

What´s about "Nine Twenty Special"?
http://www.amazon.de/Nine-Twenty-Spe...266947&sr=8-12

[JoeB]

Lots of good comments lately; I'll have more to post eventually but for now I'd just like to add another reason that the "II7 is borrowed from Lydian" theory doesn't make sense to me in a tonal setting. To review what we know from modal harmony:

• there is only one rooted tonic chord and the other diatonic chords are non-tonic
• II7 is therefore non-tonic
• II7 has no resolution tendency
• II7 would either have to move to I (tonic) or some other Lydian diatonic chord (non-tonic)

In a tonal setting, one common resolution for II7 is to I. We have already established that II7 hardly ever resolves to I in Lydian.

In addition, the other common resolution for II7 in a tonal setting is to either IV or IVm. But in Lydian there simply is no IV or IVm diatonic chord.

So to me the "II7 is borrowed from Lydian" theory completely fails to explain the common resolutions of II7 in a tonal setting.

[rjwmusic]

As someone who "cut my musical teeth" listening to and playing pop/rock music in the 1960s, long before I became acquainted with the finer points of theory, I find this discussion interesting. I'll just throw out these common examples I remember from that period:

Sittin' on the Dock of the Bay (II7 always followed by I)
As Tears Go By (II7 followed by IV [then V])
You've Got Your Troubles (II7 followed by IVm)

I note that these are all consistent with JoeB's observations.