Going from classical to jazz, in piano

[vandermozart3]

Hey! I'm new to this forum and wanting some advice about switching from classical to jazz. I've played the piano for 6 years and have been doing all the typical classical performance. I really love classical music however I've stopped getting excited about playing exactly what's written down on the sheet.

If you give me chord names etc. I can do basic improvisation but not what you'd call a jazz improvisation, just a basic rhythm to go along with contemporary music. However I want to start learning jazz, first just a bit by myself so I can see how I like it, then I'll consider proper lessons.

So what should I start with? I was a graduate from the conservatorium to get some blues and try some improv over that. What do you think? And what songs would be good to start with?

Thanks in advance for the help; I'd really appreciate it

vandermozart3

[edrowland]

Welcome.
THE JAZZ THEORY BOOK -- Mark Levine

The Jazz Piano Book -- Mark Levine

The first has served as a solid introduction to jazz for a lot of people here, myself included. There no other books I know of that serve as a serious foundation for people who come to jazz with some significant pre-existing ability on their instrument already. There are about a dozen complete tunes laced through the book in increasing order of difficulty, plus hundreds of fragments from tunes. Tunes are presented in quite reasonable order, from least to most difficult.

I'm not a pianist, so I can't speak directly to the Jazz Piano Book, but it's consistently spoken of well around here. You'd need this one to learn how to comp.

And the Real Book, 6th edition. This one, specifically:

http://www.amazon.com/Real-Book-Hal-.../dp/0634060384

For better or worse, the standard point of reference for jazz standards.

[vandermozart3]

Thanks for that! I'll definitely look into getting the Mark Levine book- it looks helpful. And I have a few Real Books around at home but have never looked properly at them, so I'll do that too!

Many thanks

[harmonynorth]

I was coming from a similar place (years of classical playing, but wanting to learn jazz piano), and have been working at it for three years now.

I have to say that for me at least lessons have been absolutely essential, because there were just so many things that I thought I understood, but it took considerable feedback before I began to really hear certain things. Especially details connected to swing feel and typical jazz piano articulation were very tricky for a long time (and still are in a lot of ways) -- my long ingrained classical ways of playing kept leading me down the garden path.

Also, for me, coming from a classical background, I had hardly ever played with other people, except for accompanying, whereas in a jazz piano context playing in an ensemble is very central. So finding opportunities to play with people who know what they're doing is invaluable. A lot of things don't really make sense unless you're playing in that context. It was a real eye-opener for me.

And I would be remiss if I didn't recommend this book: An Approach to Jazz Piano (Charles Austin). It's not very well known, but is similar in a lot of ways to the Jazz Piano Book, in terms of covering harmony and improv aspects very thoroughly. Personally I found the approach it took exactly what I needed to kind of bridge from my "classical" way of thinking to a jazz way. In a sense it's very analytical, but also full of practice ideas, and kind of philosophical as well. A bit of an odd bird of a book but it has enormous depth and you can work with it forever.

[good rhythms]

vandermozart3

if you are a classical player , you have some facility already and know theory.

what you have to get about jazz, is its language , its phrasing, its concepts. you should reseach some of its history and you should know something about sub sahara african drumming to understand some basic concepts of how the group in jazz relate to each other, like these african drummers where most people hold down their parts and the lead drummer solos over the top of the foundation.

harmonienorth makes a good point about in jazz you are playing in a group and its a group interaction and you have to know your roll in that group. a piano player is like the captain of the rhythm section so he has to be in charge

i reccomend practicing off some really challenging up tempo bop recordings and then some hardbop blues, especialy miles davis, coltrane, wayne shorter etc. the records can put you in touch right away how the masters did it, what there feeling was. if you cant play along with the records how can you do it live ? it will help guide your time, phrasing, ear, and form of the song.

[freejazzlessons.com]

Originally Posted by vandermozart3

Hey! I'm new to this forum and wanting some advice about switching from classical to jazz.

Thanks in advance for the help; I'd really appreciate it

vandermozart3

Welcome VanderMozart!!

I would recommend you do a few things in the beginning.


1. Start learning some tunes from the standard jazz repertoire.
There are lots of supplementary exercises you can do but ultimately it's all about applying any new musical concepts you learn to tunes. Start w/ a tune like Autumn Leaves, Satin Doll, Misty, All of Me, etc. etc.

2. Aural Tradition and learning the Jazz Language
Although alot of jazz concepts can be written out you must still keep in mind that it comes from an aural based tradition background. So, it's very important that you begin to deeply listen.

Try transcribing some of the concepts you hear on recordings. Start simply and just figure out 4 bars of something you like. Ideally it will be on a tune or a set of chord changes you are already familiar with.

Listen for pitch, rhythmic placement, and articulation. It can be very different than classical. You don't have to write out these concepts but you should be able to at least play along w/ the recording. Rhythm and articulation are HUGE components in jazz music. Never forget that. It's not just the pitches it's how you play them.

3. Jazz Theory Concepts
Spend time getting familiar w/ some jazz theory concepts. Learn some common chord progressions. Learn some good solid chord voicings that jazz piano players would play over those chords. Things like spread voicings, rootless voicings, shell voicings, etc. The fundamentals.

(There is lots of chord lessons on my jazz lessons site and you can also do a search for stuff on this forum as well). Tons of info.

4. Start to acquire some jazz vocabulary.

Study some licks of master players. I would recommend you learn a few II-V-I licks. It's the most common chord progression in jazz. So, that vocabulary can be applied everywhere.

It would be even better if you analyzed how the licks are built so you could come up w/ your own variations on the licks. This is a great way to begin developing your own language w/ in the context of the jazz tradition.

There of course are lots more things you can do but this should get you started. Hope this helps!

[engelbach]

Originally Posted by vandermozart3

Hey! I'm new to this forum and wanting some advice about switching from classical to jazz. I've played the piano for 6 years and have been doing all the typical classical performance. I really love classical music however I've stopped getting excited about playing exactly what's written down on the sheet.

If you give me chord names etc. I can do basic improvisation but not what you'd call a jazz improvisation, just a basic rhythm to go along with contemporary music. However I want to start learning jazz, first just a bit by myself so I can see how I like it, then I'll consider proper lessons.

So what should I start with? I was a graduate from the conservatorium to get some blues and try some improv over that. What do you think? And what songs would be good to start with?

Thanks in advance for the help; I'd really appreciate it

vandermozart3

Vander,

The Jazz Piano Book and The Jazz Theory Book by Mark Levine are good reference materials, but they won't teach you how to play jazz.

You really do need a teacher, or the equivalent of a teacher. I like to think that I'm self-taught, but in the early days I relied on experienced musicians showing me voicings and giving me advice on my rhythms, comping, harmonic progressions, and the like.

To learn you need feedback.

Speaking of which, if you could post something of what you call your basic improvisation it would help people to figure out what to suggest to you.

And you need to listen to a lot of jazz and either transcribe it yourself or read transcribed solos and see what experienced jazz musicians do. Immitation is a valuable stage in one's learning. And it never ends. Experienced players beg, borrow, and steal ideas from each other.

Cheers,
Jer

[samsine]

You should listen to a lot of jazz music constantly and then you'll start to get familiar with the jazz sonorities in the piano playing. And before you know it, you'll try to play something on your piano and suddenly you'll hear yourself doing jazzy piano runs that come naturally.
It is how it came to me but I don't know if it works for everyone. I know some people need lessons or self-teaching books to get there.
Good luck and share your progress here

[learnjazzstandards]

The Mark Levine books are both great. I highly recommend them, but I agree that ultimately we don't learn jazz from books. Books can VERY helpful, but ultimately we learn more from recordings, teachers, and by PLAYING the music with other jazz musicians.

If you have a community of jazz players you can start to get to know, that's really helpful. Playing in a jazz combo that meets regularly is a great way to put things together once you've already got your feet wet a little bit. I don't know if that's an option for you, but you might consider seeking out a small jazz group to play in or attending some jam sessions in your area to meet other musicians and learn from them. If you ask honest questions, I think most cats are open to helping.

[samsine]

Originally Posted by learnjazzstandards

The Mark Levine books are both great. I highly recommend them, but I agree that ultimately we don't learn jazz from books. Books can VERY helpful, but ultimately we learn more from recordings, teachers, and by PLAYING the music with other jazz musicians.

If you have a community of jazz players you can start to get to know, that's really helpful. Playing in a jazz combo that meets regularly is a great way to put things together once you've already got your feet wet a little bit. I don't know if that's an option for you, but you might consider seeking out a small jazz group to play in or attending some jam sessions in your area to meet other musicians and learn from them. If you ask honest questions, I think most cats are open to helping.

I definitely agree with everything you said. That's the best way to start!

[jazzman1945]

Book Mark Levine has become the standard advice for beginners in jazz For those who are already playing classical music, knows music and theory, it is certainly a help, but it not the main thing. A pianist who can read the triads or seventh chords can also read notes ninths or clusters.
Most importantly, where to begin - The four pillars: Groove , Sound, Blues scale , Riff.
Three of these four no book can give.

[rocklandpiano]

4 Tips For Switching From Classical To Jazz!

1. Jazz Is An Oral Tradition Based Music.
A lot of the stylistic elements of jazz can’t be accurately written out. Whereas in classical music almost everything is written out for us. This one fact can make a lot of classical musicians nervous. Don’t worry though we can still learn jazz but we just need to learn in a slightly different way.
2. Jazz Theory Concepts.
Most of the time when we play jazz we will be improvising on a tune and essentially building our own arrangements. To do that well we need to have a deep understanding of how harmony works as a whole. For that reason knowledge of jazz theory is vital.
3. Acquire The Jazz Vocabulary.
When you learn jazz it’s similar to learning any new language. In order to speak the “language”, i.e…. playing authentically on jazz tunes…you need to know what “words and sentences” to say. Studying jazz licks and common jazz patterns are the equivalent of studying words and sentences in our new language.
4. It’s All About The Jazz Song.
Doing musical exercises obviously serve their purpose. We must never forget though that exercises are really only a means to an end. The real point of doing any exercise is to improve our playing of real music i.e….. jazz tunes, jazz standards, jazz songs, and jazz repertoire! You can know all the jazz chords in the world, all the coolest voicings, and all the coolest licks etc. but if you haven’t spent time applying them to jazz repertoire you’re missing the point of the music. It would be similar to you learning all kinds of interesting vocabulary words in a new language but never being able to throw them together in the context of a real conversation.

[jazzman1945]

Originally Posted by rocklandpiano

1. Whereas in classical music almost everything is written out for us.

I regret to note that this statement is completely incorrect . I.S. Bach in his works often has outlined only what notes to play, and in what rhythm . Everything else depends on the interpretation (about Chopin, I do not say anything !) There have already been attempts to write down the notes of the music as accurately as possible, such as Concerto for Violin and Orchestra by Alban Berg.

[jazz oud]

Originally Posted by jazzman1945

I regret to note that this statement is completely incorrect . I.S. Bach in his works often has outlined only what notes to play, and in what rhythm . Everything else depends on the interpretation (about Chopin, I do not say anything !)

I understand your point (even in Classical music there is much that is not written down), but in comparison to jazz: even the rhythms are not written down and there are a lot of notes left out as well.

Bach is more open than later composers in that there was an entire tradition of ornamentation that was expected but not notated (this is very similar to the traditions of Ottoman, Byzantine, Arabic, Persian music, though not all of these had notational systems). The music of Bach's time also had some rhythmic peculiarities that do not match exactly with the grid-oriented metric notation system.

However, the way that Classical music tends to be taught (until one reaches a fairly advanced level of skill) is highly focused on a rather mechanical interpretation of the written notes and rhythms, and most Classical music is intelligible (if uninspiring) when performed as written. The same is not true of jazz, and it is indeed an actual difficulty (in the real world) faced by most Classically-trained musicians to unlearn the tendency to take the written music too literally.

So while rocklandpiano may be guilty of overgeneralizing and oversimplifying the situation, his general point still stands: classical musicians have to unlearn music-reading habits in order to play jazz effectively.