Girl from Ipanema improvisation

[JJ Bryton]

Originally Posted by Mike A

But that's the benefit of having an AAJ Tunes Index, if I do say so myself. Conversations about a particular tune can be revived at any time, even if the prior participants are long gone. The thread, even with a discontinuity in it, remains a continuing resource for prior and new input on that tune. Better than having a bunch of separate threads on the tune, no?

Here, here!

[JJ Bryton]

Wow, I missed all this activity regarding my post; I didn't have email notification set and was oblivious to the activity.
Thank you all for your contributions (although I would certainly welcome more). Aydin, I found your insights on the subject interesting. As a guitarist, I know for a fact that many of the most popular and effective voicings for dominant 11th chords usually omit the 3rd which avoids the dissonance you refer to whereas minor 11ths typically have the b3 present.
A lot of this seems to tie in with the late great Emily Remler's assertion that states:

• Non-functioning dominants (ie those that do not resolve to their I chord as in a V I resolution) can take the Lydian Dominant scale (mode 4 of the Jazz Minor scale)
• Functioning dominants (those that DO resolve to their I chord) can take altered tension such as that produced by the altered scale/diminished-wholetone scale (mode 7 of the Jazz minor).

[desideratha]

Originally Posted by EdByrne

The primary key is F (A Sections):

F MA7 (I MA7), G7 (V7/V7 or II7), Gm7 (ii7), Gb7 (bII7 = SubV7), F MA7 (I MA7), Gb7 (SubV7).

Analyses of Bridge: Girl from Ipanema

Db: E: F: (measures 5, 9, & 13 respectively):

//IVMA7/ /bVII7 / /ii7 / /bVII7 / /ii7 / /bVII / /ii7 of ii7 /V7 of ii7 /ii7 /V7-9 //

Key of Db: GbMA7 is IVMA7 in the key of Db; B7 is bVII7 in Db

Key of E: F#m7 is ii7 in E; D7 is bVII in E

(Primary) key of F: Gm7 is ii7; Eb7 is bVII7; Am7 is ii7 of VI in F (secondary ii7);

...

Hi Ed, I get all of these...

however: "Am7 is ii7 of VI in F (secondary ii7);" I am a bit confuse about you analysis

ii7 of VI in F?

The 6° in F is vi (D minor) right? .... then ii of vi would be Edim chord...
Am7, isn't just a iii7 in F?

Best

A.

[engelbach]

Originally Posted by desideratha

Hi Ed, I get all of these...

however: "Am7 is ii7 of VI in F (secondary ii7);" I am a bit confuse about you analysis

ii7 of VI in F?

The 6° in F is vi (D minor) right? .... then ii of vi would be Edim chord...
Am7, isn't just a iii7 in F?

Best

A.

Hola, desideratha. Welcome to the AAJ Forum.

Yes, it was an obvious typo; he meant iii7.

Ed's been off this Forum since 2009.

Cheers,
Jer

[Mike A]

Originally Posted by desideratha

"Am7 is ii7 of VI in F (secondary ii7);"

Should be: Am7 is ii7 of II in F (secondary ii7).

And it's followed by D7b9, which is V7 of II in F (secondary V7)

[engelbach]

Oops, right, Mike. The typo was the VI for II.

[JoeB]

Ed basically had it right, I think he just used a shorthand notation (it's hard to follow with all the slashes and lower case i's). I think what he meant is similar to what Mike is saying; that the Am7 is IIm7 of V7/II.

Melodically though there is another factor to add in. The Am7 is a dual function chord, also functioning as IIIm7 as Jerry says. The analysis symbols then would have Am7 and D7b9 connected via a horizontal bracket indicating that Am7 is a related IIm7 of a secondary dominant. V7/II would be written above the secondary dominant D7. The important additional notation would be IIIm7 in parentheses written above the Gm7.

For melodic purposes the (IIIm7) notation typically overrides the melodic tendency of the related IIm7 analysis. Notice the Jobim melody has the F note, not an F# as you would expect if Am7 was primarily functioning as a IIm7.

[desideratha]

That makes more sense!

Thanks you all for replying...

A.

Ps and thanks for the welcome and prompt replies!!

[desideratha]

Originally Posted by JoeB

Ed basically had it right, I think he just used a shorthand notation (it's hard to follow with all the slashes and lower case i's. I think what he meant is similar to what Mike is saying; that the Am7 is IIm7 of V7/II. (note these II should be ii)

Melodically though there is another factor to add in. The Am7 is a dual function chord, also functioning as IIIm7 as Jerry says. The analysis symbols then would have Am7 and D7b9 connected via a horizontal bracket indicating that Am7 a related IIm7 of a secondary dominant. V7/II would be written above the secondary dominant D7. The important additional notation would be IIIm7 in parentheses written above the Gm7.

For melodic purposes the (IIIm7) notation typically overrides the melodic tendency of the related IIm7 analysis. Notice the Jobim melody has the F note, not an F# as you would expect if Am7 was primarily functioning as a IIm7.

Yes, the 2 degree (°) is a minor one in F, G minor, so that ii7 (A minor 7) is part of the ii -V- i (in G minor). I think the F natural would suggest a phygian mode for that particular chord.

I see now what you say... ii7 in G would require an F# (for Dorian) ...
So I'll have to agree with you... is a hinge chord, I guess.

Best

A.

[kenlars99]

Originally Posted by desideratha

Yes, the 2 degree (°) is a minor one in F, G minor, so that ii7 (A minor 7) is part of the ii -V- i (in G minor). I think the F natural would suggest a phygian mode for that particular chord.

I see now what you say... ii7 in G would require an F# (for Dorian) ...
So I'll have to agree with you... is a hinge chord, I guess.

Best

A.

That is something that I've noticed a lot in iii VI ii V I progressions, which is while the iii in theory could or would take dorian, since the VI7 has not yet been played, and the sharp in it (the major 3 of VI7) has not really appeared yet, that dorian has kind of a "telegraphing" effect of making it sound like you are jumping early to the VI7. Using a b6 instead of a major 6 over the iii generally seems to blend in with whatever came before, and then makes that major 3 of the VI7 sound even more noticeable. Somewhat the same can be said of the b2 vs the maj 2 over the iii. I think both sounds work nicely, b6 or maj 6, but with different effects, dorian having a more assertive effect.

That said, iii leading to VI7 also gives a nice opportunity to combine a maj 6 with a b9, a neat melodic minor mode...