Chick Corea's 500 Miles High analysis:

[MaxShlochz]

Originally Posted by JoeB

Good, I thought you meant you weren't familiar with the modes. Your list is generally correct, except the characteristic note for Lydian is considered #11, as it is the 4th degree that is different and the mode also contains the 5. Once the characteristic notes are determined, typically the modal scale degress are analyzed in relation to the major scale. For example, the Dorian formula is 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7.

So now look at the chords and melody in "500 Miles High". In measure 2 we have a sustained E note through the Gm7. This typically means Dorian. There are other possibilities too, for example G Melodic Minor if you carry over the F# from measure 2. The melody in measure 4 contains an F so giving the Dorian flavor.

You can experiment with the characteristic sound of the different modes. The characteristic note sounds fantastic on the major modes. On the Bbmaj7 for example in measure 5 the E note (#11) can be held as an extension, where the normal Bb scale degree 4 can only be used as a passing tone and sounds out of place since the E note is melodically used before and after the Bbmaj7.

The minor mode characteristic notes are "avoid notes" in general on the chord, meaning you usually do not hold them on the chord but use them as melodic flavoring. For example, experiment with the first Em7 using different modes. Try E Natural Minor (G Major) vs. E Dorian. E Natural Minor has the C (b6) note. The purpose of this note is to make the B (5th) note sound sad. When you play E Dorian the C becomes C# and the feeling is much brighter. Once through the tune form we are coming from a final destination of Cm that the melody ("five hun-dred mi-les high") has introduced with an Ab (b6) suggesting natural minor and confirming Fm7 as a IVm chord. After the B7alt brings us back to the top Em7, you might want to keep the C note of that previous cadence. Depends what you want to do with your paint brush.

Other than the E on Gm7 and the Ab into the Cm11, the melody does not use either b6 or 6 on the m7 chords. I think these notes are also avoided in the piano improv, so as not to imply any mode and producing even more of a floating effect. Sometimes the chord combinations might suggest a mode; Before the Am11 we have chords and melody that contain an F note. Do you carry that into the Am11 or also give this chord a Dorian flavor? The following F#m7b5 might be suggesting that this is a Dorian feel continuation. But in pure Dorian modal harmony, the VIm7b5 is an avoid chord. F#m7b5 is also a diatonic chord in A Melodic Minor. This is what I mean by adjusting the dial between pure tonal at one end and pure modal at the other. You are in control of the flavor produced.

ok, I understand your explanation and you've explained it well but there's one thing I still don't understand about the modes:

All the modes have progressions, or more correctly, like you said - successions, so my question is: is there any logic proceeding with these chords in modal harmony?

For example, I've tried to read and learn about it when this discussion started but I didn't really get how do I build variations of modal chord successions.

I've seen this lately: Cmaj - Bm - Cmaj - Bm - and then it progresses to other chords.

People told me this is a Lydian progression but I still don't get the big picture here. (I can understand that it's C Lydian and if you choose the root of C you'll get a Cmaj7 chord [without extensions] and it goes a half step down, to the Bm and backs up again to Cmaj7, but not much more than that)

[Fred]

Originally Posted by MaxShlochz

All the modes have progressions, or more correctly, like you said - successions, so my question is: is there any logic proceeding with these chords in modal harmony?

Modality lives from the purity of the selection of the note material. To establish a real modal feeling the selection of the chords/notes therefore should be diatonic to the mode.

To play a modal cadence you need 2 different chord qualities:

1.)Tonic:
You only have 1 tonic chord - that´s the chord build on the I degree of the mode.

2.) the cadencial chord:
this chord has to have the characteristic note of the mode as a part of the chord.

Chords containing the diatonic tritone are to be avoided, because of creating tendencies toward the relative Ionian mode.

[JoeB]

Originally Posted by MaxShlochz

All the modes have progressions, or more correctly, like you said - successions

When we are within one mode, the chords are related diatonically and interact to work towards a goal (one or more non-tonic chords returning to the tonic chord). So yes, the modes have progressions, but it is not more correct to refer to these also as (non-functional) chord successions.

A non-functional chord succession is a series of chords that do not interact to progress towards a tonic. Especially for improvisation, this usually implies the sound of a series of different modes.

[MaxShlochz]

Originally Posted by Fred

Modality lives from the purity of the selection of the note material. To establish a real modal feeling the selection of the chords/notes therefore should be diatonic to the mode.

To play a modal cadence you need 2 different chord qualities:

1.)Tonic:
You only have 1 tonic chord - that´s the chord build on the I degree of the mode.

2.) the cadencial chord:
this chord has to have the characteristic note of the mode as a part of the chord.

Chords containing the diatonic tritone are to be avoided, because of creating tendencies toward the relative Ionian mode.

Can you please give an example for (1) part?
I don't understand exactly what you mean. (an example of "recommended to do" and an example of "what you shouldn't do" according to what you said at (1).

About (2), I can understand that if we have a Dorian for example, we need to add in the major 6th or if we go to Lydian then we should add the #11 extension, and if we have a Phrygian, we need to use the minor second?
Correct me if I'm wrong.

Originally Posted by JoeB

When we are within one mode, the chords are related diatonically and interact to work towards a goal (one or more non-tonic chords returning to the tonic chord). So yes, the modes have progressions, but it is not more correct to refer to these also as (non-functional) chord successions.

A non-functional chord succession is a series of chords that do not interact to progress towards a tonic. Especially for improvisation, this usually implies the sound of a series of different modes.

It makes sense though if you'll give me a few examples, I'm sure I'll see it much brighter than now because I understand you but a bit vaguely.
I heard that Miles Davis's "So What?" has non functional harmony and out of what I understand, Mike Stern's Chromazone also has non-functional harmony.

[JoeB]

Originally Posted by MaxShlochz

It makes sense though if you'll give me a few examples, I'm sure I'll see it much brighter than now because I understand you but a bit vaguely. I heard that Miles Davis's "So What?" has non functional harmony and out of what I understand, Mike Stern's Chromazone also has non-functional harmony.

I'll leave "Chromazone" to JonR as he has examined that tune in detail in another forum. I can say a few things about what makes "So What" non-functional.

Non-functional harmony often uses chords built in thirds like in functional harmony, but they are often voiced as quartal chords in performance. Notice that the Real Book for example shows the chords as Dm7 and Ebm7, but of course the mostly quartal voicings played by Bill Evans have become known as the "So What" chords. These chord provide a feeling of suspension without a strong need to resolve. Notice also that Dorian is written in parens under both of the chords.

The chord change from Dm7 to Ebm7 is linear, meaning that the entire chord moves by small step, more as a decorative highlighting of the previous chord than an indicator of a progression. The melody is also moved up to match the chord. The tonal design of leaving a tonic area and gradually returning by chord progression and active to stable melodic movement is not evident here. In addition to the form's starting and ending tonic area, the establishment of the main "home" area is based on time spent there rather than traditional cadences. In the 32-bar form, the tune is in D Dorian for 24 of those bars, Eb Dorian for 8.

The melody (if that is what you can call the bass line) is of course Dorian thanks to the characteristic 6 note. Probably the most notable thing about this style is Miles' switch to an emphasis on melodic beauty after years of playing dense, fast-paced bebop with lots of notes and chords. Miles' solo is a beautiful example of this. Miles referred to this emphasis on melody and melodic variation with less chords as modal, athough most now believe this music was inspired much more by classical Impressionism.

[MaxShlochz]

Originally Posted by JoeB

I'll leave "Chromazone" to JonR as he has examined that tune in detail in another forum. I can say a few things about what makes "So What" non-functional.

Non-functional harmony often uses chords built in thirds like in functional harmony, but they are often voiced as quartal chords in performance. Notice that the Real Book for example shows the chords as Dm7 and Ebm7, but of course the mostly quartal voicings played by Bill Evans have become known as the "So What" chords. These chord provide a feeling of suspension without a strong need to resolve. Notice also that Dorian is written in parens under both of the chords.

The chord change from Dm7 to Ebm7 is linear, meaning that the entire chord moves by small step, more as a decorative highlighting of the previous chord than an indicator of a progression. The melody is also moved up to match the chord. The tonal design of leaving a tonic area and gradually returning by chord progression and active to stable melodic movement is not evident here. In addition to the form's starting and ending tonic area, the establishment of the main "home" area is based on time spent there rather than traditional cadences. In the 32-bar form, the tune is in D Dorian for 24 of those bars, Eb Dorian for 8.

The melody (if that is what you can call the bass line) is of course Dorian thanks to the characteristic 6 note. Probably the most notable thing about this style is Miles' switch to an emphasis on melodic beauty after years of playing dense, fast-paced bebop with lots of notes and chords. Miles' solo is a beautiful example of this. Miles referred to this emphasis on melody and melodic variation with less chords as modal, athough most now believe this music was inspired much more by classical Impressionism.

ok, I can understand the idea of the non resolving and the idea of quartal chords and the fact that the Ebm7 is more of a decoration rather than a progression for Dorian home base, Dm7.

So, with this knowledge, how would you build other modal tunes?

And one other thing is this Lydian progression:

Cmaj7--Am7-D7--Cmaj7

So, out of what I understand, the modal idea here is to use the II-V of the Ionion mode (G major, which C Lydian is constructed of) but instead it goes to the Lydian chord and thus, making it a Lydian feel and a Lydian progression. (assuming we won't try to explain functionally by saying it's: Imaj7-VIm7-II7)
Or we can even make a stronger Lydian feel by adding the #11 to the Cmaj7.

Do I understand the concept correctly?
Because I have a feeling I might be taking it to a different place rather than what it should be.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by MaxShlochz

And one other thing is this Lydian progression:

Cmaj7--Am7-D7--Cmaj7

Both, the IIm7 V7 relation plus the diatonic tritone in the D7 chord are creating tendencies toward the relativ ionian mode.
Furthermore the harmonic rhythm in your example is not really clear.
The tonic should allways be on the strongest beat/bar and also should be of long duration.

Cadencial chords in C lydian are:
Bm, Bm7 and D.

[MaxShlochz]

Originally Posted by Fred

Both, the IIm7 V7 relation plus the diatonic tritone in the D7 chord are creating tendencies toward the relativ ionian mode.
Furthermore the harmonic rhythm in your example is not really clear.
The tonic should allways be on the strongest beat/bar and also should be of long duration.

Cadencial chords in C lydian are:
Bm, Bm7 and D.

Well, to be more correct, the chords look like this: (two dashes = 1 bar)

Cmaj7#11--Cmaj7--Am7--D7

Cmaj7#11--Cmaj7--Am7--D7

Cmaj7#11

So that's about the chords.

Now, what interests me most is your last sentence:
How come the Bm, Bm7 and D7 are the cadencial chords to the C Lydian?
I've seen many examples of Lydian progressions that go exactly by those cadences of Cmaj7--Bm7--Cmaj7 or Cmaj7--D7--Cmaj7, so how come these chords make good cadences to C Lydian?

[Fred]

Originally Posted by MaxShlochz

How come the Bm, Bm7 and D7 are the cadencial chords to the C Lydian?

Because they contain the characteristic note of the Lydian mode as a chord tone (which is the #11).

The characteristic note of a mode is always not part of the tonic sound but of the cadential sound.

Phrygian has the b2 as the characteristic note. Therefore DbMA7 --> Cm7 would be a typical phrygian cadence.

[MaxShlochz]

Originally Posted by Fred

Because they contain the characteristic note of the Lydian mode as a chord tone (which is the #11).

The characteristic note of a mode is always not part of the tonic sound but of the cadential sound.

Phrygian has the b2 as the characteristic note. Therefore DbMA7 --> Cm7 would be a typical phrygian cadence.

Great!!
That's exactly the kind of answer I was looking the whole internet for, (or maybe I'm just a pretty bad google searcher) all I found was always explanation of the modes rather than how do you compose with model harmony and your explanation sure does it - and I can understand why all of you emphasized the importance of the characteristic note of each and every mode.

So a big thanks that!

One more thing about comping with model theory:
Is it ok (or maybe even recommended) to add both functional theory and modal theory?
Or will that eliminate the fact that it's a modal tune? (because So What only has 2 chords for example)

[jazz oud]

Regarding the characteristic note:

If we are using complex chords, I'm not so sure we can divide up the harmony in this way.
Dm6 contains the characteristic note and could easily be a tonic Dorian chord.
Fmaj7b5 contains the characteristic note and could easily work as the tonic Lydian chord
E7b9sus contains the characteristic note and some would say it's the quintessential Phrygian chord.
What is the characteristic note of Mixolydian? It would seem to me to be b7, would you say that G7 cannot be the tonic Mixolydian chord?
For that matter, what is the characteristic note of Ionian?

I'm not arguing here . . . just questioning how this is rationalized, since as described it doesn't seem to match up with my experience.

Actually, you don't even need complex chords to raise questions:

Dm - C - Dm is a perfectly convincing cadence in Dorian, even though the characteristic tone is absent. Of course, it would not definitively establish it as Dorian if no prior exposition of the M6 had occurred, but as modal music is primarily defined melodically, we can assume that in any discussion that harmony is secondary.

It's true in many cases that it makes the most sense when the characteristic note is included, but that seems neither necessary nor sufficient.

G - F - G and G - Dm - G are strong Mixolydian cadences, but G Bº G is not.

Dm - C - Dm and Dm - Em - Dm are strong Dorian cadences, but D - Bº - D is not.

F - G - F and F - Em - F are strong Lydian cadences, but F - Bº - F is not.

This suggests to me that unstable chords do not establish modality because they tend to suggest tonality, and a cadential chord should not contain the tonic or third of the mode. Certainly not a definitive conclusion, though.

I remain unconvinced that "progressions" truly exist in modal music.
Modality is established by repeated melodic and/or harmonic establishment of the tonic note, this distinguishes it from tonality, whose tonic is established by exploiting the interaction of the tones (through voice leading, etc.) and can be convincingly established even without iteration of the tonic.

Modal "progressions" therefore generally consist of establishing the tonic chord, a brief departure to one or two other chords, and a reiteration of the tonic. This may be more significant than the term "succession" implies, but it seems of a fundamentally different character than the usual implication of "progression" which is of tonal function.
"Progression" exists in tandem with "Retrogression" in that tonal harmony is conceived as having certain movements that are leading you back to the tonic, and certain movements that lead you away from the tonic.

In modal music, there is no harmonic logic like this, movement away from the tonic is literally movement away from the tonic, and movement toward the tonic only occurs by literally reiterating the tonic (a weak case could be made that diatonic planing presents a case where this kind of motion is perceived, i.e., Dm Em F G Am G F Em Dm would be perceived as movement away from and back toward a tonic. However, the weakness of this argument is easily exposed: Dm Em F G Am Bº C Dm — at what point does this ascending motion cease being a movement away from the tonic and begin being a movement toward the tonic?).

In contrast, in the key of C, Am Dm is clearly movement toward the tonic, no caveats or other context required. F to Em is clearly movement away from the tonic, etc.

Again, I'm not saying that there isn't some order and logic to modal harmony, just that it seems a rather different phenomenon than what we usually refer to as harmonic progression.

[JoeB]

So many good comments and questions lately. Each one could become quite detailed individually, so I'll focus on one per post.

Originally Posted by jazz oud

For that matter, what is the characteristic note of Ionian?

Since diatonic harmony is derived from a tonic mode or scale, all such harmony can be considered modal. The modal name for the major scale for example is Ionian. Modal harmony (certainly in jazz anyway) usually refers to music based on the other modes derived from the major scale.

Modal quality is determined by the characteristic note, defined as the note in the scale that makes it different from Ionian (for major modes) or natural minor (for minor modes). The Ionian mode therefore does not have a characteristic note; it is the base from which other major modes derive their characteristic note.

Since the Aeolian mode and the natural minor scale have identical notes, by the above definition it appears at first that there is no Aeolian characteristice note. A piece of music using only Aeolian diatonic chords and cadences does take on a modal sound though, and the characteristic note is then considered the b6.

[MaxShlochz]

Originally Posted by JoeB

Since the Aeolian mode and the natural minor scale have identical notes, by the above definition it appears at first that there is no Aeolian characteristice note. A piece of music using only Aeolian diatonic chords and cadences does take on a modal sound though, and the characteristic note is then considered the b6.

So, to think of all possible cadences to all possible modes, all you need you need to do is to take a certain mode, find other chords that contain that characteristic note and those chords that you'll find can act as cadences to the modes. (I hope I understood it correctly)

One more very important thing, the "progression" found in both 500 Miles High and Chromazone (which are Em7--Gm7 or in Chromazone: Bbm7--C#m7) are from what mode?

I heard in a video that it's a Dorian progression, if I'm not wrong but it doesn't seem to make any sense since Gm7 doesn't have Em7's 6th so I'll appreciate any kind of clarifications on that, because it looks like Locrian is much more in place here rather than Dorian. (especially if you'll see the G chord as a Gm6)
But I also heard that you usually don't use Locrian for modal harmony because of it has the tritone with the leading tone but do explain because I'm really new to this.

[JoeB]

Originally Posted by jazz oud

What is the characteristic note of Mixolydian? It would seem to me to be b7, would you say that G7 cannot be the tonic Mixolydian chord?

b7 is indeed the Mixolydian characteristic note. I7 is the tonic seventh chord. Since I7 contains the b7, it is a characteristic chord.

There are chords that contain the characteristic note but only sometimes sound modal. These chords are called characteristic avoid chords, and require special handling to prevent their usage from implying other than the modal sound.

I7 of course is a tonic blues chord. To really produce a modal sound, it is important to use I7 with Mixolydian cadences. Depending on how it interacts with other Mixolydian chords, I7 can produce the sound of the relative major mode. Because of this, the Mixolydian tonic chord is often either a I triad or I7sus4.

"Maiden Voyage" is a good example of a tune using I7sus4 as a tonic chord, with non-functional harmonic activity involving linear chords and bass movement not common to functional harmony.

[JoeB]

Originally Posted by MaxShlochz

One more very important thing, the "progression" found in both 500 Miles High and Chromazone (which are Em7--Gm7 or in Chromazone: Bbm7--C#m7) are from what mode?

I heard in a video that it's a Dorian progression, if I'm not wrong but it doesn't seem to make any sense since Gm7 doesn't have Em7's 6th so I'll appreciate any kind of clarifications on that, because it looks like Locrian is much more in place here rather than Dorian. (especially if you'll see the G chord as a Gm6)

In a completely non-functional tune, Em7 to Gm7 would likely imply a succession of E Dorian to G Dorian. Tunes do not have to be completely non-functional though, and as we have discussed the Em7 in "500 Miles High" could also have other functionality such as Natural Minor.

In Dorian, the IIm7 is a characteristic chord. But take a look at the head of "Chromazone". Look especially at the notes on the strong beats or otherwise emphasized within the "Flight of the Bumblebee" style melody. See if you can find tell-tale usuage of the characteristic note that would imply a succession of Dorian modes.