Can we consider this scale as variation of diminished scale?

[jazzman1945]

Can we consider this scale as variation of C diminished scale in tonality of C major C-D-Eb-E-F#-G- A-B ?





http://freejazzinstitute.com/showpos...37_jazzman1945

What would Ed Byrne say about this ?

[michaelsorg]

Yes, it's one of the scales mentioned in this post. forums.allaboutjazz.com. I called that Variation 2, usable in its leading tone mode with #i o7, with #ii o7, or #v o7. It's harmonic minor plus a #2 or #9, relative to your written notes, E harmonic minor.

I should point out that in your notated example, you have nine tones in the bar with the diminished chord (F appears there as well).

[jazzman1945]

Michael, thank You very-very much! Danke Ihnen sehr!

[jazzman1945]

Ed Byrne also confirmed that these scales are kind of diminished .

[dogbite]

Originally Posted by jazzman1945

Can we consider this scale as variation of C diminished scale in tonality of C major C-D-Eb-E-F#-G- A-B ?

note also the fragments from A whole/half diminished:

A B C D Eb

as well as Eb half/whole diminished:

Eb[D#] E F# G A

it is one of the octatonics that i often use...

[jazzman1945]

My question is actually the result of a very heated discussion between jazz teachers about diminished scales, and their structures corresponding to their name. Unfortunately, dogmatic thinking in jazz still has a deep geographic - ideological roots ...

[michaelsorg]

Originally Posted by jazzman1945

My question is actually the result of a very heated discussion between jazz teachers about diminished scales, and their structures corresponding to their name. Unfortunately, dogmatic thinking in jazz still has a deep geographic - ideological roots ...

Nachum, I was just enjoying your tribute to Bill Evans. Very fine playing! Is it also your arrangement?

As far as names go, it's one of my favorite subjects. I have a naming system that is coherent for all sets and subsets for every scale and mode which has at least 7 tones and conforms to a small set of rules: must contain a perfect fifth, 7 notes of the scale must have different letter names, and there is (relative to the tonic of any mode) no aug 3, dim 4, aug 6 or dim 7. It still allows you to name scales with several consecutive chromatic tones. What's useful about naming scales is that it helps you to memorize the relationships, and you start to see how the pitch classes relate to each other, which are modes of each other, what their applications are, etc.

The set of notes you mentioned, E F#G A B C D D# (or Eb) may be called:
from E: 8-tone Harmonic Minor
from G: Major Bebop
from A: Dorian Blues (or bisected Dorian) Very nice to jam with! You've already used it without knowing it...
from B: Spanish Phrygian (a little better than the altered scale in many situations! Contains the natural 5th and a 4-3 resolution.)
from C: Embellished Lydian (a very nice sound to use over Maj7 !)

I would agree with Dogbite; that this is a very important scale. I might even go so far as to say that it might be more important than the diminished scale. It's certainly more natural.

Sorry, I made an error in my description of that scale in my first post. The added tone in relation to harmonic minor is the natural 7th degree. It is #2/#9 in relation to the Spanish Phrygian mode.

P.S. In my system, I do not used the terms diminished or augmented. They can be misleading or restrictive. The symmetrical scale of alternating half steps and whole steps receives the name "Quadratic Scale" and the 6-tone symmetrical scale of alternating half steps and minor thirds is the "Crystalline Scale." This helps when naming larger scales that contain these within them.

[jazzman1945]

Thank You, Michael! Arrangement of B.Evans not mine but of some student from Berklee, which had brought late Herb Pomeroy .

" Embellished Lydian"

- I like the term "enriched Lydian".
After some reflection, I have concluded that we are discussing and the good old major-minor system that synthesizes simultaneously different scales - like in harmony Prokofiev, Stravinsky, Bartok. This creates harmonic diversity. . We're just talking about the opposite movement, from harmony to the melodic variety.

[dogbite]

Originally Posted by jazzman1945

My question is actually the result of a very heated discussion between jazz teachers about diminished scales, and their structures corresponding to their name. Unfortunately, dogmatic thinking in jazz still has a deep geographic - ideological roots ...

i would go as far as to say that a "diminished" scale would include any pitch set containing "1," "b3," "b5," and "6," or their enharmonic equivalents. i realize that this is a very "inclusive" definition, but the kind of dogmatic thinking that leads to heated discussions has grown very tiresome for me so i'll just sit it out and watch the pies fly...

i also very much agree with michaelsorg that jazzman's octatonic is a more "natural" sound, being more tonality based rather than homogeneous - yet it retains its symmetry nonetheless:

the mode 1 2 b3 4 #4/b5 5 6 b7 8 is perhaps my favorite pitch collection of all, being versatile for a great many situations such as static modal minor grooves and subs for altered (in particular 7b9) dominants.

but enough theory - it just plain sounds good, bluesy, and natural to me

[jazzman1945]

Now there's another question: when the beginner should know that there are more than three diminished scales - that it has not fallen into frustration?

[dogbite]

Originally Posted by jazzman1945

Now there's another question: when the beginner should know that there are more than three diminished scales - that it has not fallen into frustration?

regarding the diminished type scales under discussion, i personally feel that the "beginner" should know no more than:

1) the octatonic symmetrical (whole/half and half/whole) diminished,

2) how diminished seventh chords function in terms of the leading tone in harmonic minor scales, and

3) maybe the octatonic blues mode of what turns out to be a bebop scale, or 1 2 b3 4 b5 5 6 b7 if only because i like it

and that the last scale i mentioned may tip the scales (hehe) in terms of inducing "information overload" in a beginner; however, it seems that the definition of a beginner may be different for many viewers of this forum.

i may address this further in db's thread at a future time, as it also seems that lesser experienced players tend to ask questions that result in answers that lie beyond their technical understanding.

i champion such enthusiasm, but as in all things in life, 1) to each according to his or her gifts and 2) careful what you wish for...

[michaelsorg]

Originally Posted by dogbite

regarding the diminished type scales under discussion, i personally feel that the "beginner" should know no more than:

1) the octatonic symmetrical (whole/half and half/whole) diminished,

2) how diminished seventh chords function in terms of the leading tone in harmonic minor scales, and

3) maybe the octatonic blues mode of what turns out to be a bebop scale, or 1 2 b3 4 b5 5 6 b7 if only because i like it

and that the last scale i mentioned may tip the scales (hehe) in terms of inducing "information overload" in a beginner; however, it seems that the definition of a beginner may be different for many viewers of this forum.

i may address this further in db's thread at a future time, as it also seems that lesser experienced players tend to ask questions that result in answers that lie beyond their technical understanding.

i champion such enthusiasm, but as in all things in life, 1) to each according to his or her gifts and 2) careful what you wish for...

I'm never quite sure what that means: "beginner in jazz." I came up with 2 years of piano lessons, lost patience, started learning chords, picking up melodies by ear, mostly pop. My beginning in jazz really was when I landed at a high school with jazz band emphasis. At that point, I would have scarfed up any information I could get my hands on. Maybe it was good that there wasn't much available, that my parents didn't think we should go looking for books on the subject...

Then I landed in a university in a jazz ed program, and there was of course plenty of info, though I never heard much about the Major Bebop scale. The only time I ever got the feeling I was getting too much info was when cats were playing in the dorm and playing fairly outside and I wasn't getting it. Then I had to run to my refuge, the practice room, and work on everything (digest) that I had learned up to that point.

I think somebody who says "I want to learn jazz" has to be so hungry for it that he/she is always on the borderline of TMI. It's what makes us grow!

[dogbite]

Originally Posted by michaelsorg

I think somebody who says "I want to learn jazz" has to be so hungry for it that he/she is always on the borderline of TMI. It's what makes us grow!

agreed. for those who are confused, i would suggest that they become comfortable with their confusion. for those who are not confused, i would similarly suggest that they are not sufficiently challenging themselves.

music needn't be hard though, as we are discussing technical aspects of theory and practice, rather than the natural and intuitive responses to music that all of us have to some degree.

i'd like to close with my belief that once we learn that the diminished seventh chord exists as a leading tone chord to four keys simultaneously, the door has been opened to its unique nature, and that any pitch collection that has a diminished seventh as a subset may be used accordingly.

there are other threads where the diminished seventh chord has been parsed for its functionality but i don't know how well a search would find them all...

[michaelsorg]

Originally Posted by dogbite

agreed. for those who are confused, i would suggest that they become comfortable with their confusion. for those who are not confused, i would similarly suggest that they are not sufficiently challenging themselves.

music needn't be hard though, as we are discussing technical aspects of theory and practice, rather than the natural and intuitive responses to music that all of us have to some degree.

i'd like to close with my belief that once we learn that the diminished seventh chord exists as a leading tone chord to four keys simultaneously, the door has been opened to its unique nature, and that any pitch collection that has a diminished seventh as a subset may be used accordingly.

there are other threads where the diminished seventh chord has been parsed for its functionality but i don't know how well a search would find them all...

That makes sense. I'm working on an 11-tone-based theory that might connect well with that idea. It could be asked, why 11 and not all 12? I guess I'm always looking for differentiation and definition in some form, and music has always found that in restriction: here are the modulations that are allowed; here the harmonic motions. Of course, that's always being expanded, but I believe the growth has to be tree-like, branching out from what's already there. People shouldn't be too confused when they hear music- a little disorientation is the beginning of growth - too much, and the ears, brain, and heart shut it off.