Did Miles fire Coltrane?

GA Russell · January 9th, 2003, 12:30 PM

This All About Jazz link states that Miles fired Coltrane.

http://store.resonantconsulting.com/...n=&istore=1093

I don't believe that is correct. I believe that it was Red Garland who was fired along with Philly Joe Jones. Jones was replaced by Jimmy Cobb. Garland was replace by Bill Evans, then Wynton Kelly (I think).

Coltrane left Miles to spend a year with Monk, then rejoined Miles' group, the sextet with Cannonball. Coltrane did not break the drug habit until the '60s, whilch prompted him to write A Love Supreme.

Do I have my facts straight? I am particularly unsure of the Bill Evans/Wynton Kelly scenario.

I am also unsure of the dates Sonny Rollins was a member of Miles' band. Anybody know?

jazzypaul · January 9th, 2003, 01:45 PM

If I remember all of my readings correctly, smacked Trane, fired him in a fit of anger, and when Monk saw the whole incident, he took pity on him and gave Trane a spot in his quartet. Coltrane came back to Miles after he got clean and did some okay work on some unknown album called Kind of Blue.

clifton · January 9th, 2003, 02:00 PM

Miles broke up his band at the end of 1956, so I guess he fired Coltrane, Garland, Chambers and Philly Joe. They were all addicted to heroin at the time, except Davis. Coltrane got clean in 1957. Miles reassembled his band in 1958, the sextet that recorded "Milestones", that is, the original quintet plus Cannonball Adderly. Soon Red And Philly were gone, replaced by Bill Evans and Jimmy Cobb, respectively. Evans, with drug problems of his own, left at the end of 1958. He was replaced by Wynton Kelly, although Evans came back to record "Kind Of Blue". Cannon left early in 1960, I think, to start his own group. Trane left later that same year. This time, he wasn't fired.

jimcanoa · January 9th, 2003, 04:06 PM

I think the fuss about trane being or not fired is clear... So, now, about Rollins:
He recorded with miles mainly in the 51. In 54 he did again with him and Horace Silver: Airegin, Oleo, But not for me, Doxy(all very known).Again in 1956 (that's a very rare recording) He also recorded with miles again in the 57, in Café Bohemia, New York.

GA Russell · January 10th, 2003, 01:45 AM

The original statement says that the Miles Davis Quintet
"remained together until April 1957, when Miles fired both John Coltrane and Philly Joe Jones because of their drug problems."

If it's true that Miles broke up the band, then it is false or at least misleading to state that Miles fired two member of that band.

In regard to Sonny Rollins, the issue is not when he recorded with Miles, but rather when he was in Miles's band.

By the way, what did Sonny record with Miles in '57 and where can it be found?

hoochmonkey9 · January 10th, 2003, 04:40 PM

The '57 Davis/Rollins album referred to was a live set at the Cafe Bohemia. It was released on the Chakra & Yadeon (Japanese) labels as "Makin' Wax" and "Rare Unreleased Broadcasts," respectively. Both are probably out of print, I think.

clifton · January 11th, 2003, 11:37 AM

In Miles' autobiography, he states that his band included Rollins in 1954 and again in 1957.

GA Russell · January 12th, 2003, 02:09 PM

I've never heard of those two '57 Miles with Sonny albums. I'd love to hear them!

What label are they on? Maybe we can email the label to put them out.

Finger Poppin' · March 7th, 2003, 10:46 AM

Wow, imagine firing John Coltrane. Miles always tried to change his sound. I do remember reading once where Miles asked Coltrane, while in Miles' band, why his solos were so long. Coltrane replied, "It took that long to get it all out".

Mnytime · March 7th, 2003, 11:51 AM

Everything I have ever read on the subject has Miles firing both Trane and Philly Joe.

Being a former user Miles didn't care if they where using as long as they could keep their s**t together and it didn't effect the music. But Trane started getting worse and would fall asleep on stage and show up in really messed up clothes and just look like hell and his playing was effected.

So Miles fired him and Philly Joe.

The reason Trane was hired in the first place was because Sonny Rollins had left Miles and checked himself to get clean in some place in Kentucky I believe.

After Trane was fired Sonny rejoined Miles for a short time period before Trane cleaned up and rejoined Miles.

paul_the_bear · March 19th, 2003, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Finger Poppin'
Wow, imagine firing John Coltrane. Miles always tried to change his sound. I do remember reading once where Miles asked Coltrane, while in Miles' band, why his solos were so long. Coltrane replied, "It took that long to get it all out".

Another story about Davis' complaint about Coltrane's extended solos:
Coltrane: "I get started, I can't stop playing."
Davis: "Try taking the horn out of your mouth."

-- Paul

Daniel A · March 19th, 2003, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by clifton
Evans, with drug problems of his own, left at the end of 1958.

I think I've read somewhere that Evans hadn't yet developed any drug habits when he was with Miles.

paul_the_bear · March 20th, 2003, 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Daniel A

I think I've read somewhere that Evans hadn't yet developed any drug habits when he was with Miles.

He was already using by the time he hooked up with Davis. By at least one -- highly suspect -- account, he supposedly developed a habit while in the army in the early fifties.

-- Paul

January 9th, 2003, 12:30 PM	#1
GA Russell Registered User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: North Carolina Posts: 876	Did Miles fire Coltrane? This All About Jazz link states that Miles fired Coltrane. http://store.resonantconsulting.com/...n=&istore=1093 I don't believe that is correct. I believe that it was Red Garland who was fired along with Philly Joe Jones. Jones was replaced by Jimmy Cobb. Garland was replace by Bill Evans, then Wynton Kelly (I think). Coltrane left Miles to spend a year with Monk, then rejoined Miles' group, the sextet with Cannonball. Coltrane did not break the drug habit until the '60s, whilch prompted him to write A Love Supreme. Do I have my facts straight? I am particularly unsure of the Bill Evans/Wynton Kelly scenario. I am also unsure of the dates Sonny Rollins was a member of Miles' band. Anybody know?

January 9th, 2003, 01:45 PM	#2
jazzypaul Pimple on Progress's Ass Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,021	If I remember all of my readings correctly, smacked Trane, fired him in a fit of anger, and when Monk saw the whole incident, he took pity on him and gave Trane a spot in his quartet. Coltrane came back to Miles after he got clean and did some okay work on some unknown album called Kind of Blue. __________________ www.threeblindmiceonline.com

January 9th, 2003, 04:06 PM	#4
jimcanoa Registered User Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 8	Sonny Rollins I think the fuss about trane being or not fired is clear... So, now, about Rollins: He recorded with miles mainly in the 51. In 54 he did again with him and Horace Silver: Airegin, Oleo, But not for me, Doxy(all very known).Again in 1956 (that's a very rare recording) He also recorded with miles again in the 57, in Café Bohemia, New York.

January 10th, 2003, 04:40 PM	#6
hoochmonkey9 can't play a note Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: nova scotia Posts: 128	The '57 Davis/Rollins album referred to was a live set at the Cafe Bohemia. It was released on the Chakra & Yadeon (Japanese) labels as "Makin' Wax" and "Rare Unreleased Broadcasts," respectively. Both are probably out of print, I think. __________________ "If you're a musician, don't waste any time." John Coltrane to 14 year old Eric Kloss

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January 9th, 2003, 02:00 PM	#3
clifton AAJ's Birdologist Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Clifton Hts., Pa Posts: 2,550	Miles broke up his band at the end of 1956, so I guess he fired Coltrane, Garland, Chambers and Philly Joe. They were all addicted to heroin at the time, except Davis. Coltrane got clean in 1957. Miles reassembled his band in 1958, the sextet that recorded "Milestones", that is, the original quintet plus Cannonball Adderly. Soon Red And Philly were gone, replaced by Bill Evans and Jimmy Cobb, respectively. Evans, with drug problems of his own, left at the end of 1958. He was replaced by Wynton Kelly, although Evans came back to record "Kind Of Blue". Cannon left early in 1960, I think, to start his own group. Trane left later that same year. This time, he wasn't fired.

January 10th, 2003, 01:45 AM	#5
GA Russell Registered User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: North Carolina Posts: 876	The original statement says that the Miles Davis Quintet "remained together until April 1957, when Miles fired both John Coltrane and Philly Joe Jones because of their drug problems." If it's true that Miles broke up the band, then it is false or at least misleading to state that Miles fired two member of that band. In regard to Sonny Rollins, the issue is not when he recorded with Miles, but rather when he was in Miles's band. By the way, what did Sonny record with Miles in '57 and where can it be found?

January 11th, 2003, 11:37 AM	#7
clifton AAJ's Birdologist Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Clifton Hts., Pa Posts: 2,550	In Miles' autobiography, he states that his band included Rollins in 1954 and again in 1957.

January 12th, 2003, 02:09 PM	#8
GA Russell Registered User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: North Carolina Posts: 876	I've never heard of those two '57 Miles with Sonny albums. I'd love to hear them! What label are they on? Maybe we can email the label to put them out.

March 7th, 2003, 10:46 AM	#9
Finger Poppin' Registered User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: NYC Posts: 243	Wow, imagine firing John Coltrane. Miles always tried to change his sound. I do remember reading once where Miles asked Coltrane, while in Miles' band, why his solos were so long. Coltrane replied, "It took that long to get it all out".

March 7th, 2003, 11:51 AM	#10
Mnytime Registered User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 270	Everything I have ever read on the subject has Miles firing both Trane and Philly Joe. Being a former user Miles didn't care if they where using as long as they could keep their s**t together and it didn't effect the music. But Trane started getting worse and would fall asleep on stage and show up in really messed up clothes and just look like hell and his playing was effected. So Miles fired him and Philly Joe. The reason Trane was hired in the first place was because Sonny Rollins had left Miles and checked himself to get clean in some place in Kentucky I believe. After Trane was fired Sonny rejoined Miles for a short time period before Trane cleaned up and rejoined Miles.