Conflicts between two Coltrane biographies

[xricci]

I just posted this...

http://www.allaboutjazz.com/php/article.php?id=38

Any thoughts?

[JSngry]

A most interesting and valuable article. Thanks for publishing this, Mike.

Sounds like grounds for further discussion between Dr. Simpkins and Mr. Porter. Both have made valuable contributions, and both seem to be dedicated to accuracy, in their own ways. Here's hoping that egos don't clash and that they can get together to straighten it all out.

[shawn·m]

That was great! I even printed the article, and stuffed it in my copy of Porter’s book.

Simpkins underscores some of the difficulties in researching arcane incidents as time passes: Living eyewitnesses diminish, as does the consistency of memory and even motivation.

Tranography: A Juxtaposition of Apparent Conflicts Between Two Biographies is a feather in AAJ’s cap.

[Saundra Hummer]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by shawn-m
That was great! I even printed the article, and stuffed it in my copy of Porter’s book.

Simpkins underscores some of the difficulties in researching arcane incidents as time passes: Living eyewitnesses diminish, as does the consistency of memory and even motivation.

Tranography: A Juxtaposition of Apparent Conflicts Between Two Biographies is a feather in AAJ’s cap. [/

QUOTE]

How true about memories, but some stay as fresh as the day they happened. I just wish I could pull up all of my memories of the Great John Coltrane.

I just know there was a deepness and a sadness to him that was palpable

I remember him taking his dinner out to the Strand and standing with one foot on the bench that was there, proping his plate and coffee on one knee, & eating it while watching the sun go down over the ocean. He loved our ocean in Hermosa Beach. He would be in the depths of his thoughts, and you could just see it in him.

I would also go out to watch the sun go down, and we spent a few days doing this, never talking, just watching the ocean, till one day I had walked over to buy a Jean drink, what they call smoothies now, and he asked what those were, and if they were any good. This was my first conversation with him, all about peaches, and how he liked them. I gave him a drink of mine into his empty coffee cup, and he was hooked. He then would tell me how lucky I was to live there in our nice little town, and how beautiful it was to be able to see such a sight, as the sun going down over the ocean everyday. He said all they had was a dirty river where he was from. I asked him if there were lights that reflected off of it at night,, and if there were, he was lucky, and he said there were, which I then told him, that must be beutiful, that you couldn't see the dirtiness at night. He said that he hadn't thought of it that way, but that yes it was. I heard later that he would stand on that bridge and play his sax into the night. Heartbreaking.

I would give anything to remember more of the short little conversations we had after that, and the fact that he asked me which were my favorite sets, and which part of a particular tune did I enjoy the most, amazed me, why he did that, I will never understand. Perhaps that it was just that he had a genuine feel for his audiences, and was desirous of making them happy. I really don't know, as I just thought he was amazing, and for him to want my opinion, a know nothing when it came to music, other than I know what I enjoyed. For he and a few others to sit and have their coffee's with me at times was just a thrill for me, just a teenaged kid, with a love for them and their music. Go all nostalgic thinking of it to this day.

I have writen to this site about this before, but thought that since a lot has been lost, caused by the hackers, I would repeat my little "Trane" story. Not an earth shattering one, but fills out a little more flesh to such an interesting and humane genius.

[Andy D]

I finished recently reading Porter's book on Coltrane and very interesting it was, at times it went a little to deep for me on the musical side, not being a musician it was interesting but not that interesting. I was also aware of some of the issues rasied by Simpkins, in relation to the accuracy of the book.

As has been suggested it is often a case of the 'facts' Vs what people recall at various times, and this can often change day-to-day or week-to-week. In the end I think I am left with a number of questions about the views expressed by both.

Regards

Andy D.

[Saundra Hummer]

Originally posted by Andy D
I finished recently reading Porter's book on Coltrane and very interesting it was, at times it went a little to deep for me on the musical side, not being a musician it was interesting but not that interesting. I was also aware of some of the issues rasied by Simpkins, in relation to the accuracy of the book.

As has been suggested it is often a case of the 'facts' Vs what people recall at various times, and this can often change day-to-day or week-to-week. In the end I think I am left with a number of questions about the views expressed by both.

Regards

Andy D.

Hi Andy!

I think that too often people are more interested in their perspective, and their motives for writing a biograpy, that they just aren't driven by the facts as much as wanting to put their own views out there, or the fact that they want so much for their writings to be sucessful, they lose the point of writing the book; that is to give us insight into whomever it is they are giving us the facts about. That is what it should be, facts, then if they want to interject their thoughts, they should clarify that those are just thoughts, or perhaps they think that something might be true, but it is up in the air as to the accuracy of an interview, or a story. That something that has been reported as fact, may in fact have the potential for being incorrect, but that it is a story that has been around so much that it has become to be accepted as a fact, when who knows? Jeeze, going in circles here, but you get my drift!

[shawn·m]

Originally posted by Saundra Hummer
...and the fact that he asked me which were my favorite sets, and which part of a particular tune did I enjoy the most, amazed me, why he did that, I will never understand.

I could be wrong, but I have an idea about that. Musicians and artists have trouble seeing their work as if for the first time —the way a gallery does. The foreknowledge of all the theory, practice, emotion and any other building blocks get in the way.

Certainly critical opinion of someone of Coltrane’s stature must have been easy to come by. Then there are other musicians, brothers-in-arms or not, who would act as sounding boards. But given what I’ve read about Coltrane, it seem inevitable that he’d want to know what attracted a lay-fan (such as myself, no dig intended) to his work and why. If nothing else, it would have given him a chance to hear his work through his audience’s perspective.

Great story, Saundra.

[J.A.W.]

Great story, Sandi! Good to see you back.

[El Gaucho]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Saundra Hummer

Originally posted by shawn-m
That was great! I even printed the article, and stuffed it in my copy of Porter’s book.

Simpkins underscores some of the difficulties in researching arcane incidents as time passes: Living eyewitnesses diminish, as does the consistency of memory and even motivation.

Tranography: A Juxtaposition of Apparent Conflicts Between Two Biographies is a feather in AAJ’s cap. [/

QUOTE]

How true about memories, but some stay as fresh as the day they happened. I just wish I could pull up all of my memories of the Great John Coltrane.

I just know there was a deepness and a sadness to him that was palatible.

I remember him taking his dinner out to the Strand and standing with one foot on the bench that was there, proping his plate and coffee on one knee, & eating it while watching the sun go down over the ocean. He loved our ocean in Hermosa Beach. He would be in the depths of his thoughts, and you could just see it in him.

I would also go out to watch the sun go down, and we spent a few days doing this, never talking, just watching the ocean, till one day I had walked over to buy a Jean drink, what they call smoothies now, and he asked what those were, and if they were any good. This was my first conversation with him, all about peaches, and how he liked them. I gave him a drink of mine into his empty coffee cup, and he was hooked. He then would tell me how lucky I was to live there in our nice little town, and how beautiful it was to be able to see such a sight, as the sun going down over the ocean everyday. He said all they had was a dirty river where he was from. I asked him if there were lights that reflected off of it at night,, and if there were, he was lucky, and he said there were, which I then told him, that must be beutiful, that you couldn't see the dirtiness at night. He said that he hadn't thought of it that way, but that yes it was. I heard later that he would stand on that bridge and play his sax into the night. Heartbreaking.

I would give anything to remember more of the short little conversations we had after that, and the fact that he asked me which were my favorite sets, and which part of a particular tune did I enjoy the most, amazed me, why he did that, I will never understand. Perhaps that it was just that he had a genuine feel for his audiences, and was desirous of making them happy. I really don't know, as I just thought he was amazing, and for him to want my opinion, a know nothing when it came to music, other than I know what I enjoyed. For he and a few others to sit and have their coffee's with me at times was just a thrill for me, just a teenaged kid, with a love for them and their music. Go all nostalgic thinking of it to this day.

I have writen to this site about this before, but thought that since a lot has been lost, caused by the hackers, I would repeat my little "Trane" story. Not an earth shattering one, but fills out a little more flesh to such an interesting and humane genius.

Wow saundra, you are so lucky to have been around trane and spoken to him. I was born in the 80's but i feel almost as if i have had personal conversations with him through listening to his music. The best way to know someone truly is to listen to their music.

Through his music coltrane does strike me as a very quiet serious and intelligent man with a lot of pent up emotion. Did u ever encounter trane' when he was more animated or excited?

what period was this when u hung out with him?

[Saundra Hummer]

Thanks for your thoughts everyone!

This was back in the late 50's at the Lighthouse in Hermosa Beach, and it was fabulous.

Like I said, I was just a teenager. I started going in there when I was 15.

I had a severe problem with bone infection in my foot, so it was at times very difficult when it was on a flare-up to get around at school on crutches with all of the books one has to carry while at school, so I had to have a home teacher, and besides my temperature would flare out of control at times. Around 10:30 or so in the mornings my lessons would be over so I would trek the 13 blocks or so to the Lighthouse. Sometimes I would have lunch there and watch the bands set up, see and hear them warm up, drink their coffee's, maybe eat a little breakfast, and do whatever it is that they would do to get ready to play for that afternoon or evening. This could often be as much fun as watching them play to a crowd.

These fellows were all so much into their music, that it was hard to see a personal side with a lot of them, some were not interested in befriending a teenaged kid, some were, and it always seemed to be the greatest talents that were the nicest to me, and to the other kids that went in there, which were just a handful.

The owner John Levine was just great to us, and always made us feel welcome. A couple of the guys could be really rude, like Miles, but he ended up coming off of it, and was exceptionally nice to me. One other player called me a bitch one night, after I had said "Hello!" All he said was that one word, "Bitch," John Levine about fell off of his stool, he was as surprised as I, as you really never heard the fellows swear, much less at a patron. I think it was Zoot Simms, but hear that he was too nice a guy to do that, It has been so many years ago, perhaps I confused him with someone else, but It was one of the white musicians, and I could swear it was him. Built like him, and looked a lot like him if it wasn't and it really does seem to me it was him. Anyway John Levine apologized and said that it wasn't like him, that he was drunk, whoever he was.

When John Coltrane wasn't being so deep, and into his deep reflections, that is when he would ask opinions, sit down and have a coffee break with you, talk to everyone around him, the musicians, is who I mean, and then he would want to know about you, and just show a general interest in you. They of course talked music, music, music. Next gigs, that gig, who was doing what, and where, and how. A lot of times they would just go and stand out in the alley-parking lot, have a smoke a quick bite to eat, or just get some air. I would be out there myself at times, but stood away, so as not to intrude. Did talk to Monk onetime outback, but that was just to tell him that he was going to ruin his beutiful yellow embroidered Satin Morocan slippers in all of the car oil. He just said he had lots more, that he just had to have some air. I told him there was a bench out on the Strand, and it was nice there, but I don't know if he ever went there or not. It seems to me he did, but not going to say for sure.

I wish I could remember more of what went on with John Coltrane, and a lot of the others that I admire, and enjoy so much, but that was eons ago, and some of it has ended up back in that fog. Somethings just barely visable. Remember a little more all of the time, like the Bill Perkins thing, but still it is a little confusing.

I'll tell you who is a great musician from that time and was the winner of so many Downbeat polls, and that was Frank Rosolino, a very favorite with me, as well, personally, and musically. I don't know how he could have ever been in such despair to do what he did, but I just loved him, and really enjoyed his music. Should you ever want to enjoy some good Trombone, look him up, he is a talent that can't be denied. I just wish I could turn back the clock and change so much that went on, but as we all know that is an impossible dream. I remember him dancing for me when I got off of my crutches after so many years, everyone says he always danced when he was "really happy!" I would love to be able to dance for him.

[Saundra Hummer]

Originally posted by David Gitin
Differences between the two bios are petty, but the posturing (who 'owns' Coltrane) is the same sort of ugliness one finds in academic publications.

Talk about "academic publications," I can't believe the pettiness that people in certain vocations have when publishing an article, or giving an interview!

If you think that the jazz historians or interviewers are petty, then you should pick up some archaeology publications. It is so petty as to be comical. Brilliance doesn't exclude wacko behavior, or so it seems.

[Topographic Oceans]

I really don't think of it as petty. It's getting the facts straight and doing good research. Once small articles of information gets more and more distorted, it turns into larger things becoming more and more distorted. Besides, no one would consider small discrepencies in the medical or science world as petty. Is jazz history less important?

[Saundra Hummer]

Originally posted by Topographic Oceans
I really don't think of it as petty. It's getting the facts straight and doing good research. Once small articles of information gets more and more distorted, it turns into larger things becoming more and more distorted. Besides, no one would consider small discrepencies in the medical or science world as petty. Is jazz history less important?

WiTh your site name, I am assuming you are interested in such publications.

I always have been, from a lay persons perspective, very interested in archaeology, and find it just fascinating, but when they start in on someone, they usually don't just state facts, they go into personalities and it is unbelievable that such educated men, and it has been mens reports that have done this, not the womens that I have seen, can be so, as it seems at times, full of jealously.

Their articles would be much more interesting if they just stated facts, and perhaps some human interst throw in, like different takes on the subject, then state which theory holds more weight according to their educated way of thinking, tell some stories about the times they are probing into, after all they are writing to a laypersons magazine, not a scientific journal, and we the public, like to be entertained, not bombarded with their jealousy, like trying to tear someone down from their apprentice days to their present time. Really, how can they accomplish anything with the time they spend on being upset with their collegues.

I know that things and methods change all of the time in their field, and that they often times challange one anothers theory's, and that is a good thing, but like here on this board, they often times get carried away with their own self importance, or their feelings of inadequacy, so they begin picking on who they perceive to be the underdog, or the person they feel is a threat to their own self esteem. My feelings about all of this anyway. Funny how the two always seem to meet on the same path.

[Simon Weil]

Kissinger has a nice line about academic politics:

It gets so nasty because it matters so little.....

Simon Weil

[Saundra Hummer]

Originally posted by Simon Weil
Kissinger has a nice line about academic politics:

It gets so nasty because it matters so little.....

Simon Weil

Gotta love it!