12-bar blues variant

[engelbach]

miharbi,

Please forgive me, but I don't understand most of your progressions.

I can't tell from the chord symbols where you intend most of the voice leading or how some of the chord movement gives a feeling of the blues.

It would be helpful if you could post voicings in staff notation or point to an accompanying sound file.

Cheers,
Jer

[miharbi]

Originally Posted by engelbach

miharbi,

Please forgive me, but I don't understand most of your progressions.

I can't tell from the chord symbols where you intend most of the voice leading or how some of the chord movement gives a feeling of the blues.

It would be helpful if you could post voicings in staff notation or point to an accompanying sound file.

Cheers,
Jer

I mean, any number of voicings can work, to my ears. I take 12-bar blues as a form to consist in A, B, turnaround, like a protracted waltz, ie, it's mostly about feel and rhythm, and coherent chord movements. If I slap a shuffle or swing or a 6/8 on any of those progressions, and play solid roots, they do sound recognizably bluesy to me, on an admittedly diluted notion of "blues". But they might not to you, and I get that. I hope they sound coherent and musical though, that being the actual goal.

[engelbach]

Originally Posted by miharbi

I mean, any number of voicings can work, to my ears. I take 12-bar blues as a form to consist in A, B, turnaround, like a protracted waltz, ie, it's mostly about feel and rhythm, and coherent chord movements. If I slap a shuffle or swing or a 6/8 on any of those progressions, and play solid roots, they do sound recognizably bluesy to me, on an admittedly diluted notion of "blues". But they might not to you, and I get that. I hope they sound coherent and musical though, that being the actual goal.

Let's take your first example:

|Gm - - - |Bb - - - |Edim7 - - - |Eb7 - - - |
|Dm - - - |A - Dm - |G - - - |Gsus2b5 - - - |
|G - - - |C7 - - - |F - - - |Dm7 - D7 - |

I can voice it, but functionally I'm puzzled. Is it in Gm or in F? I feel like it's missing a couple of cadences. It doesn't move to the fourth, Cm, doesn't return to Gm in bar 7, and another G chord in bar 8 doesn't prepare us for a G chord in bar 9.

Also, in jazz one rarely encounters triads and sus2 chords. The former are usually embellished in some way, unless they're just passing chords, and the latter are usually dominant 9 chords.

In a blues, we have to feel four things in three sections: One, the establishment of the tonic; Two, the move to the fourth and the move back to the tonic, and Three, a final statement that returns to the tonic by either adding the fifth and recapitulating the fourth, or making some kind of II-V cadence. Each section should be clearly heard.

I have no problem with unusual chord progressions, but sans melody it's difficult to figure out how to make them work as blues.

I think what you have are interesting 12-bar progressions that when played you might make sound "bluesy," but which are not The Blues.

[miharbi]

Originally Posted by engelbach

Let's take your first example:

|Gm - - - |Bb - - - |Edim7 - - - |Eb7 - - - |
|Dm - - - |A - Dm - |G - - - |Gsus2b5 - - - |
|G - - - |C7 - - - |F - - - |Dm7 - D7 - |

I can voice it, but functionally I'm puzzled. Is it in Gm or in F? I feel like it's missing a couple of cadences. It doesn't move to the fourth, Cm, doesn't return to Gm in bar 7, and another G chord in bar 8 doesn't prepare us for a G chord in bar 9.

Hi engelbach. Yeah, it's in neither Gm or F, strictly speaking. You could say it's in Gm but takes a weird detour. You could say it's in shifting keys.

Also, in jazz one rarely encounters triads and sus2 chords. The former are usually embellished in some way, unless they're just passing chords, and the latter are usually dominant 9 chords.

Well embellishments are kinda left up to the player. And frankly, I'm interested in using the full gamut of chords. The point was to do atypical things. Rehashing typical progressions isn't that interesting to me.

In a blues, we have to feel four things in three sections: One, the establishment of the tonic; Two, the move to the fourth and the move back to the tonic, and Three, a final statement that returns to the tonic by either adding the fifth and recapitulating the fourth, or making some kind of II-V cadence. Each section should be clearly heard.

I have no problem with unusual chord progressions, but sans melody it's difficult to figure out how to make them work as blues.

I think what you have are interesting 12-bar progressions that when played you might make sound "bluesy," but which are not The Blues.

Fair enough. I'm aware of the traditional strictures of "The Blues". The thing is, rules are meant to be broken. THAT'S what's at the heart of jazz, by my lights, and even blues too :) But if you wouldn't label those progressions "blues"... again, fair enough. Call them bastardizations of 12-bar blues, or distant relatives. Getting hung up on labels is pointless. At any rate, they're cool progressions... I dig the stories they tell. Use 'em or don't.

[engelbach]

Originally Posted by miharbi

Hi engelbach. Yeah, it's in neither Gm or F, strictly speaking. You could say it's in Gm but takes a weird detour. You could say it's in shifting keys.

Shifting keys is fine, whether or not one calls something "blues." But as I say, I'd like to hear how you'd play this progression, as I'm not convinced by the modulation.

Well embellishments are kinda left up to the player. And frankly, I'm interested in using the full gamut of chords. The point was to do atypical things. Rehashing typical progressions isn't that interesting to me.

Again, I'd like to hear what you think they should sound like.

Fair enough. I'm aware of the traditional strictures of "The Blues". The thing is, rules are meant to be broken. THAT'S what's at the heart of jazz, by my lights, and even blues too But if you wouldn't label those progressions "blues"... again, fair enough. Call them bastardizations of 12-bar blues, or distant relatives. Getting hung up on labels is pointless. At any rate, they're cool progressions... I dig the stories they tell. Use 'em or don't.

Rules can be broken, but that's not why they're made.

Blues are a matter agreed-upon usage. Blues can exist in different forms, as long as they sound like the blues, and part of that sound is not just "bluesiness," but a form that fits. I can play any standard with a bluesy feeling, but that wouldn't make it a blues.

We often say that "all jazz is the blues," because that's the feeling that pervades our playing. But when we refer to an actual blues we mean something more specific.

You've put a lot of effort into those progressions, which is why I'd like to hear how you'd play some of them.

Cheers,
Jer

[miharbi]

Originally Posted by engelbach

Blues are a matter agreed-upon usage. Blues can exist in different forms, as long as they sound like the blues, and part of that sound is not just "bluesiness," but a form that fits. I can play any standard with a bluesy feeling, but that wouldn't make it a blues.

Right, and there's a little more going on than just playing with a bluesy feeling. Indulge me for a moment. The abstract formula of 12-bar blues is distinctive, and I feel it almost regardless of which actual chords are used. Maybe because at heart I'm a rhythmic person, I don't know. But I'm sure I'm not the only one. Take a basic 12-bar blues like...

C7 F7 C7 C7
F7 F7 C7 C7
G7 F7 C7 C7

To me that feels like Opener, Middle Act, Finale, where the Finale involves a climax/turnaround. All of this independent of the specific chord changes. There just need to ~be~ fitting chord changes at the right times, and that skeleton phrase structure is enough for me to hear the blues in something.

Suppose we keep everything the same except change all those F7's to Eb7's. Does that not still ~feel~ like a blues? To me it would, and it would ~sound~ like a ~weird~ blues. But I can't imagine not interpreting it as a blues, because again, the essence of the form, to me, lies in the phrasing, which would be perfectly upheld. So I'm genuinely curious, what would you call something like that, a progression that sounded, phrase-wise, exactly like a blues, but disobeyed the chord change rules? Is it a faux blues? An ill-formed blues? Blues's evil cousin? Avant-garde blues? Is it now just a random 12-bar pattern unrelated to blues? But that can't be. There's at least a strong kinship. Right?

Anyway, I hear you. Blues in conventional terms means more than this.

I'd post some recordings but it's not easy because alas I recently sold what recording gear I had. Times be tight.