Melodic minor chord families?

[jster]

Originally Posted by kenlars99

It seems to me that jazz minor is often used in a very different way than the major scale... not so often that there are multiple chords in a row all diatonic to the same jazz minor scale.

jazz minor can function as all 3, in particular these very common usages:
locrian major 9 as a subdominant
altered scale as a dominant
minor with a major 7 or major 6 as a tonic

however all 3 of these have different "root" of the jazz minor.

What about Lydian b7? Did you leave that out? Or do you just put it under the altered scale?

[jster]

Originally Posted by dogbite

the (well, mine anyway) short answer is this:

there are two usages of melodic minor in music. 1) the classical use as a minor tonality during mostly cadences, where the ascending and descending forms are different and the functions of tonic and dominant remain identical to the major mode, and 2) the jazz melodic minor (ascending form) modes where modes are substituted for the functions found in classical harmomy...

for example, F melodic minor for E7(alt) resolving to Am is functioning as a dominant, even though the vii of melodic minor is not a dominant scale step. same for the Bb7(9/#11/13), where the Bb is the subdominant of F melodic minor; however, may function as a dominant (V7) of Eb major. in other words, the subdominant (IV) of F melodic minor is functioning as a dominant (V7) of Eb major in the following progression:

Bb7(#11) Ebmaj9

E        F
D        D
Ab       G
Bb       Eb

in which case the pitch set F G Ab Bb C D E (F melodic minor, ascending form) may be used as a mode of the Bb lydian dominant scale, functioning as the dominant of Eb.

sorry if "short" wasn't so short after all...

The author I mentioned says that the #11 disorients and makes that more suitable for a non-functioning (ie non-resolving) dominant chord.

But leaving the non-resolving cases aside, isn't it mostly used for tritone subs?

[dogbite]

Originally Posted by jster

The author I mentioned says that the #11 disorients and makes that more suitable for a non-functioning (ie non-resolving) dominant chord.

But leaving the non-resolving cases aside, isn't it mostly used for tritone subs?

it can be, but also treat what authors say with a grain of salt, as what they write may be in context of a larger chapter or idea. i wouldn't say mostly but how 'bout more simply, it may be used for tritone subs because the tritone sub of lydian b7 (lydian dominant) is altered dominant:

F G Ab Bb C D E = Bb7#11 (Bb C D E F G Ab) and E7alt (E F G Ab Bb C D)

no wonder CST (chord scale theory) makes people crazy

let me offer this:

minor chords are used for i (in minor keys) ii (in major keys) iv (in minor keys) and vi (in major keys)

melodic minor modes 1 and 2 produce minor chords; therefore, may be used for i, ii, iv, and vi chords. see where i'm going with this?

melodic minor modes IV and V (as well as, enharmonically, the vii) produce dominant chords, having 3s and b7s; therefore are used for dominant (V7) chords. mode 3 of melodic minor is a maj7#5; mode 6 is m7b5, as is also mode 7...

what we're doing is substituting "like" chords (as in similar to) for their normal counterparts in functional harmony.

[michaelsorg]

Originally Posted by jster

Thank you Michael. So your lesson here was mostly to see how smooth things sound when we leave out the 4th and 6th of the parent?

Yes, but not only that. One of the best uses of melodic minor is, well, over minor. And some brilliant soul figured out that these 3 modes of melodic minor could be put to such perfect use over the minor ii-V-i. I don't know who first used it - if I had to hazard a guess, I'd say it wasn't a jazzer but rather an impressionist composer like Maurice Ravel.

Originally Posted by jster

The author I mentioned says that the #11 disorients and makes that more suitable for a non-functioning (ie non-resolving) dominant chord.

But leaving the non-resolving cases aside, isn't it mostly used for tritone subs?

If I may offer some input on this question in reference to Dogbite's post, I would first echo his response, summing it up as: be flexible, keep an open mind. Some musicians prefer reserving the altered scale or 5th mode harm mi for resolving to minor chords, and not altering the dominant chord on a V7-Imaj on tonic (dom13#11 is usually considered unaltered). But most players I know prefer at least the tension of b9 in any V7-I. You are mostly correct in the use of Lydian b7 over a dominant appraoching from a half-step above. Especially if the chord of resolution is a major chord, that offers a high degree of tension and resolution. But as far as dominants which resolve up a 4th, there is certainly one that most often uses Lydian b7. That is the V7 of V. Though this chord may often first move to iim7 before going to V7, it doesn't change its dominant function.

Of course, the bVII7 moving to I is a natural for Lydian b7. Think of the 3 upper extensions of Bb13#11, C E G. That's your chord of resolution, so, a perfect match. In fact, over Killer Joe or any number of Salsa tunes with the same motion, you can keep the same melodic minor going over the I chord. That's the 5th mode melodic minor over a tonic dominant, something not everyone thinks of, but very effective, and has a beautiful sound with the b6 (sometimes referred to as the Hindi scale).

As far as tritone subs go - they're one of the main reasons for using the altered scale over a V7 (not that I'm proposing that you always should). Because you never know (except in a set arrangement) where the bassist will use the tritone sub, using 7th mode mel min will marry up well either way it goes.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by jster

For the harmonized major scale we divide the chords into (typically) three categories: tonic, subdominant, and dominant. How come we don't do the same for Melodic Minor?

We do.

In the same way we define the functions in the major diatonic heptatonic scale
we do it in MM (Melodic Minor).

Functions in the major diatonic heptatonic scale
Tonic function: IMA7, IIIm7, VIm7
Characteristics: chords do not contain the IV as a chord tone

Subdominant function: IIm7, IVMA7
Characteristics: Chord do contain the IV as a chord tone

Dominant function: V7, VIIm7(b5)
Characteristics: Chord do contain the tritone.



Functions in the MM scale
Tonic function: ImMA7, bIIIMA7(#5), VIm7(b5)
Characteristics: chords do not contain the IV as a chord tone

Subdominant function: IIm7, IV7
Characteristics: Chord do contain the IV as a chord tone

Dominant function: V7, VIIm7(b5)
Characteristics: Chord do contain the tritone.



By the way, the MM scale has a view exceptional qualities which I tried to ilustrate in the following chart:


MM is also called Akustic Heptatonic because it is similar to the acoustic overtone row.

[bobbystern]

"The Melodic Minor Handbook: A Jazz Player's Perspective" by Bobby Stern, available from Jamey Aebersold will answer all your questions and more, about Melodic Minor. MM is still widely misinterpreted and misunderstood.

My new eBook, "Slick Licks That Stick!", also contains a wealth of Melodic Minor material. You might also want to read the first part in a series of blog posts "Sympathy for Melodic Minor - Major's Evil Twin", Pt 1.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by bobbystern

"The Melodic Minor Handbook: A Jazz Player's Perspective" by Bobby Stern, available from Jamey Aebersold will answer all your questions and more, about Melodic Minor. MM is still widely misinterpreted and misunderstood.

My new eBook, "Slick Licks That Stick!", also contains a wealth of Melodic Minor material. You might also want to read the first part in a series of blog posts "Sympathy for Melodic Minor - Major's Evil Twin", Pt 1.

Are you trying to sell your book or will you join the discussion?

[engelbach]

Originally Posted by bobbystern

"The Melodic Minor Handbook: A Jazz Player's Perspective" by Bobby Stern, available from Jamey Aebersold will answer all your questions and more, about Melodic Minor. MM is still widely misinterpreted and misunderstood.

My new eBook, "Slick Licks That Stick!", also contains a wealth of Melodic Minor material. You might also want to read the first part in a series of blog posts "Sympathy for Melodic Minor - Major's Evil Twin", Pt 1.

Very interesting stuff, Bobby. Welcome to the AAJ Forum.

[DavidEnLasMontanas]

This isn't the best thread to be asking in, but I didn't want to dust off some old thread about this subject.

I'm really confused regarding altered dominant scales.

When I first got familiar with jazz, I really wanted to get that nice tension in my soloing when it really feels you're going "outside" and then perfectly coming right back again. Well, basically we were playing altered dominant scales. But I never got that really down, I tried most of the things but the thing just doesn't come natural in my soloing.

Now I was reading this thread and got really confused. Correct me now if I'm wrong:

The song is in B minor:
Bm D9 Bm F#7alt

So, a good idea would be to play B natural, D dorian, B natural and E altered scale, right? As far as I know, I could play a melodic minor scale a fret up to play an altered scale, in this case G melodic minor.

Let's say I'm playing a ii-V-I:
Dm G7 Cmaj7

D dorian, G dominant, C major scale. But my teacher told me it will sound wicked to play an G altered scale, but it works. In other words, an G# melodic minor.

How about ii-V-i?
Dmb5 G7 Cmin7

I guess it works the same way, right?

But how about if I want to play a tritone substitution? ii-V-I
Dm G7 (Db7) Cmaj7

Should I still play the G altered or should I play D melodic minor (which is a half step above the substitution)?

[Fred]

Originally Posted by DavidEnLasMontanas

Well, basically we were playing altered dominant scales.

You can alter any dominat scales in many ways. But when we are speaking about "The Altered Dominant Scale" generally we mean MM7 (Melodic Minor starting on its VII degree).

Originally Posted by DavidEnLasMontanas

The song is in B minor:
Bm D9 Bm F#7alt

So, a good idea would be to play B natural, D dorian, B natural and E altered scale, right?

Certainly you mean "natural minor" scale (= aeolian) for the minor tonic chord Bm. The second chord in your example is D9. Dorian would not work well. D9 is a dominant chord.
F#7alt works best with G MM7 (= f# g a a# b c d e) and not E altered scale like you said.

Originally Posted by DavidEnLasMontanas

Let's say I'm playing a ii-V-I:
Dm G7 Cmaj7

D dorian, G dominant, C major scale. But my teacher told me it will sound wicked to play an G altered scale, but it works. In other words, an G# melodic minor.

Be consistent in naming your scales. D dorian, G mixolydian and C ionian.
To exchange G mixolydian with G MM7 is OK as long as it does not crash with the melody.

Originally Posted by DavidEnLasMontanas

How about ii-V-i?
Dmb5 G7 Cmin7

I guess it works the same way, right?

Yes. Also a dominant chord in minor can use the MM7 scale.

Originally Posted by DavidEnLasMontanas

But how about if I want to play a tritone substitution? ii-V-I
Dm G7 (Db7) Cmaj7

Should I still play the G altered or should I play D melodic minor (which is a half step above the substitution)?

The tritone substitute normally takes MM4 (Mixo #11).
However subV7/I, subV7/IV and subV7/V can take both, MM7 or MM4 because in these 3 cases the MM7 scales are mostly diatonic to the key.

[DavidEnLasMontanas]

Originally Posted by Fred

You can alter any dominat scales in many ways. But when we are speaking about "The Altered Dominant Scale" generally we mean MM7 (Melodic Minor starting on its VII degree).

Certainly you mean "natural minor" scale (= aeolian) for the minor tonic chord Bm. The second chord in your example is D9. Dorian would not work well. D9 is a dominant chord.
F#7alt works best with G MM7 (= f# g a a# b c d e) and not E altered scale like you said.

Be consistent in naming your scales. D dorian, G mixolydian and C ionian.
To exchange G mixolydian with G MM7 is OK as long as it does not crash with the melody.

Yes. Also a dominant chord in minor can use the MM7 scale.

The tritone substitute normally takes MM4 (Mixo #11).
However subV7/I, subV7/IV and subV7/V can take both, MM7 or MM4 because in these 3 cases the MM7 scales are mostly diatonic to the key.

Fred, thanks a lot for your answer and apologies for me being so sloppy. Of course I mean E9 instead of D9 in the first example and I also mean G melodic minor instead of E melodic minor (I wrote the whole thing in A minor first and then mixed them all up). Wasn't sure about the English name of the scales, thank you for reminding me.

Regarding the examples, you really made it clear for me. I'm definitely going to explore it further now.

Do you have any advice how to practice this? I've tried soloing over ii-V-i, but it always sounds like I just running the scale up and down when I hit that dominant chord. I really want it to sound fluid and on its way to the tonic.

[engelbach]

Originally Posted by DavidEnLasMontanas

Fred, thanks a lot for your answer and apologies for me being so sloppy. Of course I mean E9 instead of D9 in the first example and I also mean G melodic minor instead of E melodic minor (I wrote the whole thing in A minor first and then mixed them all up). Wasn't sure about the English name of the scales, thank you for reminding me.

Regarding the examples, you really made it clear for me. I'm definitely going to explore it further now.

Do you have any advice how to practice this? I've tried soloing over ii-V-i, but it always sounds like I just running the scale up and down when I hit that dominant chord. I really want it to sound fluid and on its way to the tonic.

Going to the tonic in an artful way requires that you play a melody on the dominant that naturally leads you to a strong note on the tonic.

You don't necessarily want to play every note of the altered scale, nor run it up or down. Just use it as your pitch collection from which to choose melody notes.

[kenlars99]

Originally Posted by jster

What about Lydian b7? Did you leave that out? Or do you just put it under the altered scale?

I guess either Lydian b7 can function as a dominant, but it seems that this one is very often a non-resolving dominant chord, which can often have a subdominant-like function... I hesitate to say subdominant, because that kind of implies that they lead to a dominant. What I mean is there is a kind of dominant IV chord sound, perhaps the IV in blues being the most basic example (although in this case not necessarily #11), which has a very strong IV sound, yet is a 7 chord. Whether this is appropriately described as subdominant I don't know.

[jster]

Originally Posted by michaelsorg

If you have an accompaniment source such as Band-in-a-Box, plug in an F13#11 chord and improvise using these 5 tones: C Eb G B D. You'll notice it's hard to make a mistake...Whether you're playing Cm(maj7), Ebmaj7#5, F13#11, Am11b5, or B7#9#5, those same tones will serve you well.

I tried this with F13#11 and I agree. But then I was playing the following progression in the key of Fmajor:

...Cm7 F7 Fm7...

I used C dorian for the Cm7 and then {B, C, D, Eb, G} over the F7 and it sounded a little better than the whole F lyd b7 scale, but I wasn't that happy with either. Maybe the root F was just too loud and so the tritone was coming through? F mixolydian of course sounds pretty vanilla, but I couldn't get that darned B to sound very good except as a passing note. Any thoughts?

Thanks.

[michaelsorg]

Originally Posted by jster

I tried this with F13#11 and I agree. But then I was playing the following progression in the key of Fmajor:

...Cm7 F7 Fm7...

I used C dorian for the Cm7 and then {B, C, D, Eb, G} over the F7 and it sounded a little better than the whole F lyd b7 scale, but I wasn't that happy with either. Maybe the root F was just too loud and so the tritone was coming through? F mixolydian of course sounds pretty vanilla, but I couldn't get that darned B to sound very good except as a passing note. Any thoughts?

Thanks.

Well, it's definitely a tension (though considered by some a chord tone when the chord is given as F13#11). That means, sooner or later, most people will want to hear a resolution to C, possibly by way of D, at the latest when you move back to Cm7. A little more modern is to resolve it directly to the Bb or D when you change chords. Tensions are a matter of taste, in terms of how they resolve or don't resolve. But one of the tendencies in jazz is to leave them unresolved, at least sometimes.