8-tone scales and Dim7/dom7 b9 chords

[ashbyanderson]

Originally Posted by michaelsorg

So in 1., you left out F#
in 2. you left out F#
in 3. D
4. Ab
5. B
6. F
7. F
8. F#

I'm not following the logic...and I'm not finding the chords or modes at your linked composer blog...

Sorry about that link Michael. Try the direct link instead: 48 Modes of the DHW Diminshed Scale

The logic or method here is that by removing 1 note of the diminished scale that's not needed to define the chord qualities listed below, a seven tone scale or mode is created specifically for each chord. all the scales/modes listed are transposable through the same Diminished scale . It follows the same logic you outlined earlier. One scale with multiple modes as in C major = D dorian, E Phyg. F lydian, G mixolydian, A aeolian an B locrian. The notes don't have to be deleted but, by deleting one note each scale now has a definite scale to use with the chord for those who like having 7 tones to play over a chord. The difference in the above method is this. In C major you cannot transpose the intervals of the C Major scale and remain in the same scale but, within the diminished series you can transpose any thing in you can come up with within the scale and transpose it up or down in consecutive Minor 3rds from any starting point in the scale.By transposing each of the scales and chords I listed up a minor 3rd there would be 16 chords all within the same diminished scale. Transpose the same chords and scales up again a minor 3rd and you would get 24 chords and scales which will all be transposition of my original 8 that are listed below. These are only 8 of the 48 modes listed on my Jazz Composition Blog

1.D: D-7 = D,Eb,F,Ab,A,b,C voiced as D,F,A,C
2.Eb: Ebsus4#5Maj7, = Eb,F,F#Ab,A,B, D voiced as Eb,Ab,B,D
3.F: F7 b9 = F,Gb,Ab,A,B,C,Eb voiced as F,A,C,Eb,Gb
4.Gb: Gb sus Major7= Gb,A,B,C,D,Eb,F voiced as Gb,B,F ( quartal voicing)
5.Ab: Ab phrygian = Ab,A,C,D,Eb,F,Gb voiced as Ab,A,Eb,Ab(quartal voicing)
6.A: Ao7= A,B,C,D,Eb,Gb,Ab voiced as A,C,Eb,Gb
7.B: B7#9= B,C,D,Eb,Gb,Ab,A voiced as B,Eb,A,D
8.C: C Min-Maj #5 = C,D,Eb,F,Ab,A,B ( C harmonic Minor) ( C Augmented Minor) Voiced as C,Eb,Ab,B

Jazz Composition Blog

[michaelsorg]

I’m finally getting back to this. I agree with Bob as far as there being 2 different heptatonic subsets or scales that we can derive from the diminished scale. And there are 7 modes of each of those, making 14 different modes. If we were to practice all transpositions of those hard-to-remember modes, we'd have 14 x 4 x 3 = 158 modes. I don't recommend this, though.

What I do think is useful and not so difficult is to conceive of 4 possible 8-tone scales which incorporate the diminished 7th chord on every other tone. I'll sum them up, showing various dominant 7th chords with their resolutions:

Variation 1: G13#11b9 (and/or #9) resolving to Cmin or C maj
G Ab Bb B C# D E F (half/whole diminished scale)

Variation 2: G7b13b9 (and/or #9) or Bo7 resolving to Cmin or C maj
G Ab Bb B C D Eb F (Spanish Phrygian or 5th mode C harmonic minor add #2 or 3rd mode Eb major bebop)

Variation 3: G13b9 or Bo7 resolving to C maj or F/C in key of F or E7 altered resolving to Am
G Ab Bb B C D E F (5th mode C harmonic major add #2) For the E7 alt. use the 3rd mode: E F G G# A# B C D

Variation 4: G7b9 resolving to Cm6
G Ab A B C D Eb F (5th mode C bebop melodic minor)

As far as dim 7 use goes, I suggest:
#i o7 to ii min and #v o7 to vi : use Variation 2 (leading tone mode)

#ii o7 moving up to iii min use Variation 3 or Variation 2 (leading tone mode)
biii o7 moving down to ii min. use Variation 3 or Variation 1

#iv o7 to I maj/5 bass use Variation 3 (leading tone mode) or Variation 1

bvi o7 to I maj/5 bass or v m7 use Var. 3 (b2 mode)
vii o7 to I m6 use Var. 4 (seventh mode)

[michaelsorg]

Originally Posted by michaelsorg

Bob and Ashby, I too think of a mode as one entity - whether it's C dorian or F# dorian, it's one mode. For practice purposes I have to concieve of that as 12 scales x 7 modes = 84 elements to practice. But for conceptualizing and theoretical purposes, it's one scale, 7 modes. Ashby, do you have perfect pitch? That would explain why you conceive of them as different things...

Bob, I can see why breaking down to a heptatonic scale helps to build a set of "normal" chords. I find it interesting and useful when dealing with different scales (or pitch class sets) to make charts of all possible chords, at least those that could be considered useful in a functional way. Especially when dealing with nine- or ten-tone scales there are lots of possibilities and combinations that arise, so a "diatonic" approach to building chords is not complete (that is, taking every other tone to build 7th chords ).

As far as the meaning of chords like (C) Eb Ab B and (C) Eb F# B, I think that's pretty open. I mean, if I'm in C minor and I play the chord (C) Eb F# B D, I intend that as Cm9(maj7#11). But if I'm in C major, it's probably a diminished 7th with maj7 and 9 added. (C) Eb Ab B in the key of G maj is some inversion of an Ab7#9(7 omitted) or a D13(#11b9). But in C minor it could be a C minor chord in need of some resolution. It could also be G7b13b9/C. I've got a tune which uses exactly these chords, I'll try to get a snippet of it up soon and post it.

Ok, here's the promised audio excerpt. Due to arpeggiation and variation, those voicings are a little hard to distinguish. At the very end, you can here them in the upper register. http://michael-sorg.com/schluss-stueck-excerpt.mp3

[Bob Pearce]

Lovely, Michael.

[michaelsorg]

Originally Posted by Bob Pearce

Lovely, Michael.

Thank you, Bob.

[michaelsorg]

Here's an exercise I hope some of you might find interesting...

See if you can identify by ear the scale being used in this little etude before you analyse the score, and before you continue reading.

Play MIDI file





Yes, of course, it's the diminished scale: the Half/whole starting on C. I attempted to give the impression of chord resolutions and progression through the Cycle of 4ths. See if you can identify the aural illusions...