Phrasing Exercises? Odd Phrasing: Help!

[jazzman1945]

Originally Posted by engelbach

I like that analogy. A solo is an essay, a speech, a monologue.

It is therefore important, even necessary for jazz musician have an understanding about the actor's play (Stanislavsky and his follower in States, I do not remember the name).The fact that this is generally not studying, I see like a really big problem!

[wedmedyk]

Originally Posted by engelbach

The most basic way to keep track of where you are in the tune is to know the chords and use them as your guide in your solo.

If you can feel the harmonic rhythm, you won't need to count. Focus on how the tune is structured and hear where it is at when you're not playing.

Eventually you'll be able to play more freely, with less reliance on playing strictly by the changes.

I know the harmonic rhythm, thats not the hard part, thats what im trying to escape.
All i meants was that I get lost in the odd meter sequence that is being imposed over the chords.

[shiatoru]

Originally Posted by wedmedyk

I know the harmonic rhythm, thats not the hard part, thats what im trying to escape.
All i meants was that I get lost in the odd meter sequence that is being imposed over the chords.

I know exactly what you mean.

I've made sure that I can "feel" certain key song forms as well as I can feel a 12 bar, i.e. there is very little danger of getting lost. Rhythm changes is one I've really beaten into my head so as not to get lost. And I'm just fine, as long as I play it "straight". Sure, I can start phrases further into a beat / measure, lay out in places. But if I *really* go apeshit, get super-floaty etc...it's a toss of the coin if I can keep it together.

[shiatoru]

Like listen to how this solo begins.....

http://www.russletson.com/sounds/Ole...ler128solo.mp3

[wedmedyk]

Originally Posted by shiatoru

Like listen to how this solo begins.....

http://www.russletson.com/sounds/Ole...ler128solo.mp3

this is exactly the type of phrasing im talking about.
Who is this playing?

[shiatoru]

Originally Posted by wedmedyk

this is exactly the type of phrasing im talking about.
Who is this playing?

James Muller. And me too - I aspire to this kind of thing too - talk about true freedom....

[engelbach]

Originally Posted by wedmedyk

this is exactly the type of phrasing im talking about.
Who is this playing?

Your previous post has me puzzled. You can't escape the harmonic rhythm: that's the structure of the tune. It lies underneath everything you play.

In shiatoru's example the structure of the tune, Oleo, is always there, in the bass. You can hear the changes. And while the soloist's phrasing floats above it, overlaps it, and has its own rhythm, it also often makes direct reference to it.

Hearing that, regardless of what your solo is doing, is how you know where you are in the tune.

[shiatoru]

What we're saying is that when we purposely solo in such a way as to deliberately obscure the harmonic rhythm of the tune, we throw ourselves off and sometimes get lost (at least momentarily).

[zcottovision]

Originally Posted by shiatoru

What we're saying is that when we purposely solo in such a way as to deliberately obscure the harmonic rhythm of the tune, we throw ourselves off and sometimes get lost (at least momentarily).

This is where a metronome and some maths comes in. Practice unusual groupings with a metronome, for example groups of four ascending notes but with triplet rhythms. When it all syncs back up, it sounds fantastic.

I'm a pianist but take inspiration from drummers for this kind of thing. I heard a particularly good drummer comping a 7/4 tune but playing every two beats. The end effect was that it sounded like an even meter when in fact it was an odd one - he was playing 2, 4, 6, 1, 3, 5, 7, then back to 2. Obscuring the harmonic rhythm of a piece is a fascinating and never ending process.

[wedmedyk]

Originally Posted by engelbach

Your previous post has me puzzled. You can't escape the harmonic rhythm: that's the structure of the tune. It lies underneath everything you play.

In shiatoru's example the structure of the tune, Oleo, is always there, in the bass. You can hear the changes. And while the soloist's phrasing floats above it, overlaps it, and has its own rhythm, it also often makes direct reference to it.

Hearing that, regardless of what your solo is doing, is how you know where you are in the tune.

Okay. Well. My solo's are always instictually in reference to the tunes harmonic rhythm. Usually i only play 2 or 4 measure phrases, or variations of that, but they always go back to referencing the underlying harmonic rhythm. You know, starting and ending symetrical phrases, and never escaping the tunes implied progression. A common example in many musicans playing is to always begin a new phrase, or idea, every time you get back to the top of the changes. For example, if im playing a blues, 12 bars (3 sets of 4 measure sections). my new phrases will more often then not always begin at the start of each new section. The top (I), when it hits IV, and when it hits ii are usually where my phrases are geared.
The problem for me isnt getting lost in the tune. The problem is im trying to imply asymetrical phrases, and i get lost in my counting of the odd phrases. For example: Play for 3, rest for 2, play for 3, rest for 2, etc. While im playing, i will get lost in regards to how many measures i was resting for, or how many measures i played. I get lost in that counting.

I always know what chord im on, thats not the hard part. The problem is when i try to ignore my instincts to phrase to the chords implied phrasing, and try to make phrases that "go over the bar line" so to speak. However hard i try, when i listen back to myself, i always find my phrasing going back to the tunes implied rhythm, rather than to an odd phrasing. Even when i deliberating try to "play weird phrases" it always leads back to a predictable place.
The whole point is i want to play unpredicatable phrases, and try to escape the confines of the harmonic rhythm of the tune at hand.

[jazz oud]

What I wrote about in my lost post is that I think that a lot of the time that being stuck phrasing in the 4- and 8- bar harmonic phrases is partly due to not actually having entirely and comfortably internalized the harmonic phrasing. This seems paradoxical at first, but I think that the issue can be more generally (and productively) thought of as "lack of control over phrasing" rather than "inability to subvert the harmonic phrasing".

If you work to gain more precise control over your phrasing, you can then use that to displace, extend, delay, anticipate and otherwise go counter to the natural phrasing of the tune.

The following suggestions assume a 32-bar tune (since that is the most standard and "predictable" phrasing):

To gain more control over your phrasing, the first thing to understand is that melodic phrases generally end on the "1" of an odd-numbered bar. Work on creating phrases that start somewhere in bar 32 and end on beat one of bar one, start in bar 8 and end on beat one of bar 9, start in bar 16 and end on beat one of bar 17, and start in bar 23 and end on beat one of bar 24. This is the simplest 8-bar phrasing.

Now, this seems to be doing the opposite of what you ultimately want (ending exactly on beat one is pretty square), but this discipline is going to give you more control over all of your phrasing and a better internalization of the underlying structure (hearing resolutions in advance, and targeting your lines toward them, especially), which in the long run gives you more freedom in deviating from the structure (because it is internalized it need not be externalized).

You can use your imagination in developing exercises: start simply, playing just 2-note ideas: "and one", "four - one" and "four and one", gradually increasing the complexity (more notes, different rhythms, extending farther back into the preceding measure, etc.), while maintaining the resolution on "one".

Then work on moving the resolution to the "and of four" preceding the usual "one" resolution. This is the simplest anticipation and pretty easy for anyone that's listened to much jazz.

Then you can work on delaying techniques. The most common is to delay the resolution to the "and of one" or "two", often involving a leap between the last two notes.

This is all without altering the perceived harmony in your lines. You'll find that once you have been doing this a while, you will start to hear the changes in advance in such a way that you can start playing off chord changes before they happen, even by a couple of measures at fast tempos, but still making the resolutions happen in a clear and convincing way.

You can extend the approach or delay the resolution of a melodic line indefinitely in either direction (although at some point you come up against a different phrase point); this is the most basic way of freeing your lines from the harmonic rhythm while still respecting it. No matter where you start, you are hearing where the line's resolution is directed (even if you decide to resolve it somewhere else, earlier or later).

Beyond this, you can start displacing the actual harmonic implications of your lines, shortening (or omitting) some chords, anticipating, delaying and/or lengthening others.

I haven't read his book, but my understanding is that Hal Galper's "forward motion" deals with this topic in some depth and with applicable exercises.

[jazzman1945]

In fact, we are talking about the performance of prose, superimposed on a harmonic grid, typical just for the songs.
I offer my method with melodica (use without mouthpiece).
Put your playback, take the melodica ,press any key in the middle (the best option - the second step of main key) and start to utter any prosaic text whisper inside the instrument , following the syntactic pause.
Try to hear the result of the overlay of your phrases through single sound on playback. Rhythm of the text will be spoken, only the syllables in words will correspond to the eighths of accompaniment.
When you feel more free - move to the piano.

PS
I forgot: after playing at one note, go to the construction of melody in the rhythm of your speech.

[engelbach]

Originally Posted by wedmedyk

Okay. Well. My solo's are always instictually in reference to the tunes harmonic rhythm. Usually i only play 2 or 4 measure phrases, or variations of that, but they always go back to referencing the underlying harmonic rhythm. You know, starting and ending symetrical phrases, and never escaping the tunes implied progression. A common example in many musicans playing is to always begin a new phrase, or idea, every time you get back to the top of the changes. For example, if im playing a blues, 12 bars (3 sets of 4 measure sections). my new phrases will more often then not always begin at the start of each new section. The top (I), when it hits IV, and when it hits ii are usually where my phrases are geared.
The problem for me isnt getting lost in the tune. The problem is im trying to imply asymetrical phrases, and i get lost in my counting of the odd phrases. For example: Play for 3, rest for 2, play for 3, rest for 2, etc. While im playing, i will get lost in regards to how many measures i was resting for, or how many measures i played. I get lost in that counting.

I always know what chord im on, thats not the hard part. The problem is when i try to ignore my instincts to phrase to the chords implied phrasing, and try to make phrases that "go over the bar line" so to speak. However hard i try, when i listen back to myself, i always find my phrasing going back to the tunes implied rhythm, rather than to an odd phrasing. Even when i deliberating try to "play weird phrases" it always leads back to a predictable place.
The whole point is i want to play unpredicatable phrases, and try to escape the confines of the harmonic rhythm of the tune at hand.

I understand your goal.

But the reason you get lost in the counting is that you haven't internalized the harmonic rhythm.

You want to be able to play any kind of loosely constructed melodic phrasing and still know where you are in the tune, and when your phrase ends your sense of where you are has to come from your inner sense of the harmonic progression.

I suggest practicing short phrases, introducing and ending your melody in mid-measure with one ear always on how it is displaced against the harmony.

[wedmedyk]

Originally Posted by jazz oud

To gain more control over your phrasing, the first thing to understand is that melodic phrases generally end on the "1" of an odd-numbered bar. Work on creating phrases that start somewhere in bar 32 and end on beat one of bar one, start in bar 8 and end on beat one of bar 9, start in bar 16 and end on beat one of bar 17, and start in bar 23 and end on beat one of bar 24. This is the simplest 8-bar phrasing.

Then work on moving the resolution to the "and of four" preceding the usual "one" resolution. This is the simplest anticipation and pretty easy for anyone that's listened to much jazz.

Then you can work on delaying techniques. The most common is to delay the resolution to the "and of one" or "two", often involving a leap between the last two notes.

This is all without altering the perceived harmony in your lines. You'll find that once you have been doing this a while, you will start to hear the changes in advance in such a way that you can start playing off chord changes before they happen, even by a couple of measures at fast tempos, but still making the resolutions happen in a clear and convincing way.

Sorry to revive an old post. I went MIA, and never responded to this. This is the advice i was looking for. Thank you very much, i anticipate it helping me quite a bit.

[guitarjazz]

http://www.amazon.com/Time-Future-Po.../dp/0786652802

Time for the Future: Polyrhythm in Harmony by Bret Willmott