Ken Burns Jazz

[Kevin Murray]

Originally Posted by xybert

Is it really that mind boggling? A lot of people share his opinion. I don't, but i see where he is coming from. From memory Miles himself was pretty open about wanting to appeal to a wider audience (citation needed). There are several legit reasons to dislike Wynton; expressing his honest opinion of another artist is in my opinion not one of them (Miles was quite ruthlessly opinionated himself, in his time).

The last point is quite true. And I'm completely biased towards Miles. I love him, and he is one of my main influences.

Just puttin' that out there.

[xybert]

Originally Posted by Kevin Murray

The last point is quite true. And I'm completely biased towards Miles. I love him, and he is one of my main influences.

Just puttin' that out there.

Ha ha, fair enough. I'm just so used to artists i dig having negative opinions of other artists i dig that for the sake of my sanity i tend to let it go (Ethan Iverson Vs. Chick Corea is a good example). In actual fact i'm so used to anybody having negative opinions of artists i dig that for the sake of my sanity i tend to let it go . Not that i won't debate or share my point of view, but i usually see where others are coming from. Cheers.

[Kevin Murray]

Originally Posted by xybert

Ha ha, fair enough. I'm just so used to artists i dig having negative opinions of other artists i dig that for the sake of my sanity i tend to let it go (Ethan Iverson Vs. Chick Corea is a good example). In actual fact i'm so used to anybody having negative opinions of artists i dig that for the sake of my sanity i tend to let it go . Not that i won't debate or share my point of view, but i usually see where others are coming from. Cheers.

Letting it [anything] go is a good thing to do... It'll help you a lot down the line. And in music -- 10 times more so. Some people who never learn to let things go get stuck in some crappy situations.

And good points you're making there.

[Hot Ptah]

I can't tell how much of the commentary on this thread is meant sarcastically or tongue in cheek. Seriously now, I think that there has probably been no one topic discussed more on this board, or any other jazz online board for that matter, than the merits of Wynton Marsalis, especially in the earlier years of all of the boards. The discussions were often very long and very emotional, with much venting of extremely strong opinions. To me, the discussions were sometimes unnecessarily unpleasant. It seems that these discussions about Wynton have died down in recent years. I am not sure why.

[Kevin Murray]

Originally Posted by Hot Ptah

I can't tell how much of the commentary on this thread is meant sarcastically or tongue in cheek.

The discussions were often very long and very emotional, with much venting of extremely strong opinions. To me, the discussions were sometimes unnecessarily unpleasant.

It seems that these discussions about Wynton have died down in recent years. I am not sure why.

Unnecessarily unpleasant is accurate. As a new member on the forum, I am finding out what is expected, and what comments are "not allowed." This thread certainly got me started down that path of discovery, whether good or bad.

[JETman]

For what it's worth, and by total coincidence, I have just started watching this documentary. I taped it off of PBS when it aired back in January/February 2000. For many reasons, not the least of which is that life always seemed to get in the way, I have waited. I wanted to dig deeper into jazz, and I wanted to get some distance from all the negative commentary being made about it and Wynton after it first aired. I see Wynton for who he is (a talented musician who likes to make his opinions known), so his appearances in this don't offend me in the least. That being said, I'm enjoying this. It's got a lot to offer from a historical perspective. Obviously, to cover all periods of jazz music in great depth, multitudes of more hours would have been necessary. My only complaint is that only one episode (approx. 2 hours) is devoted to the genre from 1961 - 2000. Too many important developments occurred during this time to give it such short shrift, but it is what it is. This doc should certainly help in terms of educating those who had no previous exposure to jazz before viewing it. I know haters are gonna be haters, but overall, I'm glad this was produced.

[Kevin Murray]

Originally Posted by JETman

For what it's worth, and by total coincidence, I have just started watching this documentary. I taped it off of PBS when it aired back in January/February 2000. For many reasons, not the least of which is that life always seemed to get in the way, I have waited. I wanted to dig deeper into jazz, and I wanted to get some distance from all the negative commentary being made about it and Wynton after it first aired. I see Wynton for who he is (a talented musician who likes to make his opinions known), so his appearances in this don't offend me in the least. That being said, I'm enjoying this. It's got a lot to offer from a historical perspective. Obviously, to cover all periods of jazz music in great depth, multitudes of more hours would have been necessary. My only complaint is that only one episode (approx. 2 hours) is devoted to the genre from 1961 - 2000. Too many important developments occurred during this time to give it such short shrift, but it is what it is. This doc should certainly help in terms of educating those who had no previous exposure to jazz before viewing it. I know haters are gonna be haters, but overall, I'm glad this was produced.

I highly enjoy/ed it as well. My first point was that people can be offended/turned away from the documentary by Wynton, not that I am. He is, yes, a very talented musician. I have enjoyed several of his records, and absolutely loved his appearance on NPR's "JazzSet." He hit some amazing notes (both high in register and emotion), and his band was really swinging. The drummer took some great fills, the saxophonist was on fire, and the pianist moved lighting fast up and down the keyboard. I like Wynton as a player. Let this be made clear. His music is good, if not great, and he has a great sense of pride in what he does, and his heritage, as well as the heritage of jazz itself. He shows this clearly in Ken Burns' "Jazz", and also plays some great licks on his beautiful Monette horn. The negativity about Wynton seems like a thing that people instantly agree with, either because they actually think so, or because they think its "hip" to have the same opinion as other "hip" people. This is a big reason why the jazz community can be so seemingly cold -- some people are hard to talk to because their opinions, and some people don't like talking to people in the jazz community because their previous experiences have been so ugly. I have had great conversations with musicians, as well as ones where they just say "Keep practicing, man" and not much else. Anyways, this "hating of Wynton" seems like one of those insider things, with certain jazz circles loving him, dissecting his every note, and certain groups not even giving him a chance.

Anyhow, if you like Wynton, the series is great. But my personalopinion is that Wynton is a great player, and he has a strong sense of pride for America, and a strong pride in the face that jazz is alive, and he is a part of it. He gives himself a little too much credit -- some people call him the "Self-Appointed King of Jazz", and I can see that, but he isn't that full of himself. The thing that turns me away from Wynton, though, is his opinion of Miles Davis. I consider Miles, me being a very beginning trumpet player, to be the master. His tone, his phrasing, and even the way that he held the horn -- amazing, inspiring, and artistic. Wynton, as most of you know (you rudely let me know, thank you), did not appreciate Miles, and went way beyond just disliking him. Wynton publicly attempted to humiliate Miles many times, and in return, humiliated himself. It is common knowledge and sense that if you dislike something, you keep it to yourself. So, he doesn't like Miles. That I see impossible to believe, but OK. He can have his opinion. But the fact that he tries to make Miles look worse in front of tons of others..... That's just terrible. Anyhow, I'm sure you guys are professors on the subject, as you have let me know in the past. I am disgusted on that one thing about Wynton -- his opinion of the great Miles Davis. This lead me to dislike him for a long time, but I have started listening to him and respecting him much more. I don't think of him as "The Guy Who Hates Miles" anymore. I think of him as a great trumpet player with a couple of opinions I disagree with. I've learned to let these opinions of his not irritate me much anymore. I still find it hard to believe, but I can now listen to his records without going "Man, what is wrong with this dude." The thing is, also, that Miles influenced everyone's trumpet playing, whether they want him to have or not. His approach was widely imitated and used by others. So even Wynton Marsalis owes something to Miles. Even though he has accused him of selling out in multiple books, he still needs to pay him in some way. And in a sense, he does just my playing jazz trumpet. Keeping the tradition alive is something Miles would value. I know some of you have brought up the point that Miles had strong opinions too, and that's one thing I tend to overlook, which is bad. I've read several biographies on his life and ideas, and he does "hate on" some people. I know this is bad, but I think that Wynton, claiming to be some King of modern jazz, should not do the same thing to a master. Not if he wants to keep a squeaky-clean profile. The truth is, Miles didn't have a squeaky-clean profile. He was into drugs, hard, he broke the laws frequently, and he could be rude. But Wynton, on the other hand, hasn't done much wrong in the textbook sense. He is generally a great influence, and if wants to keep that power, he should keep his opinions to himself. Really.

Now, I've said enough. I really do think that Wynton is a good player -- he can play fast, he can play the blues, and he has soul. But that one opinion...

And Ken Burns Jazz is a great series. I've learned a ton from watching it, and enjoy its overall presentation. Its good, it really is! I just want to be clear on my opinions of Wynton. I do not hate him, and I know this is a commonly-discussed topic. But sorry, I've only been on the forum for less than a month, and I don't spend my free time reading the archives.

[xybert]

Originally Posted by Kevin Murray

The thing that turns me away from Wynton, though, is his opinion of Miles Davis. I consider Miles, me being a very beginning trumpet player, to be the master. His tone, his phrasing, and even the way that he held the horn -- amazing, inspiring, and artistic. Wynton, as most of you know (you rudely let me know, thank you), did not appreciate Miles, and went way beyond just disliking him. Wynton publicly attempted to humiliate Miles many times, and in return, humiliated himself. It is common knowledge and sense that if you dislike something, you keep it to yourself. So, he doesn't like Miles. That I see impossible to believe, but OK. He can have his opinion. But the fact that he tries to make Miles look worse in front of tons of others..... That's just terrible. Anyhow, I'm sure you guys are professors on the subject, as you have let me know in the past. I am disgusted on that one thing about Wynton -- his opinion of the great Miles Davis. This lead me to dislike him for a long time, but I have started listening to him and respecting him much more. I don't think of him as "The Guy Who Hates Miles" anymore.

As we've established Wynton is/was opinionated and is unafraid to share those opinions, but i'm note sure where you are getting that he 'hates' Miles, unless you are making the leap of criticizes = hates. The influence is obvious. I can't remember where i read it but there's the story of him listening to Live at the Plugged Nickel endlessly and going so far as to take it round to Wayne Shorter's house so that they could listen to it and discuss it together.

From what i've read Wynton adored Miles. He was just critical of his fusion years (and it's arguable that he was so critical because he loved his earlier music so much and held him in such a high regard). It's possible to like an artist and still not like everything that they do. And if their career takes a turn for something that you aren't in to it doesn't negate their earlier music.

The stuff about deliberately trying to humiliate Miles... hmmmm. I was aware of the incident where he randomly walked on stage uninvited and Miles told him to f*** off. If he was setting out to deliberately humiliate Miles then that really is a dick move but again i don't equate it with hating Miles. Many people would argue that Miles did a good enough job of humiliating himself in the eighties . I haven't listened to his eighties stuff enough to have a solid opinion.

Anyway, i'm making a lot of projections and assumptions here. Maybe Wynton does hate Miles, but i've seen no evidence of it myself. Thanks for the discussion!

[JETman]

I didn't mean to set off a firestorm here. I'm just giving my honest views on the Ken Burns documentary after deciding not to watch it at all for the first 13 years after its release.

Mr. Murray -- try not to take offense to whatever Wynton said about Miles. I am a great lover of Miles' music as well, but it's not like Wynton was the first to criticize Miles as a sell-out. From what I understand, the jazz community was saying things far worse when some of those electric records were first released.

[Kevin Murray]

Originally Posted by JETman

I didn't mean to set off a firestorm here. I'm just giving my honest views on the Ken Burns documentary after deciding not to watch it at all for the first 13 years after its release.

Mr. Murray -- try not to take offense to whatever Wynton said about Miles. I am a great lover of Miles' music as well, but it's not like Wynton was the first to criticize Miles as a sell-out. From what I understand, the jazz community was saying things far worse when some of those electric records were first released.

I was not trying to kindle the firestorm that has started. I am sorry for any opinions of mine that people have disagreed with.

And I know there were far worse things said about Miles. I will try not to take offense of Wynton's opinions, but man, that's hard.

Its a tough topic in general.

[Jeff Smith]

Discussing a 13 year old jazz documentary like it's relevant today is kind of proof of why jazz has gone to hell in a handbasket.

[Kevin Murray]

Originally Posted by Jeff Smith

Discussing a 13 year old jazz documentary like it's relevant today is kind of proof of why jazz has gone to hell in a handbasket.

Great point.The jazz community is starving for content. Let's all quit discussing this and go live at the new SFJAZZ center. Real jazz, in 3D!!

[Jeff Smith]

If I lived where you did, that's where I'd be. Do it.

[Kevin Murray]

Originally Posted by Jeff Smith

If I lived where you did, that's where I'd be. Do it.

That's where I'd like to be, but y'know... The whole parents thing, and the middle school thing..... :'(

[JETman]

Originally Posted by Jeff Smith

Discussing a 13 year old jazz documentary like it's relevant today is kind of proof of why jazz has gone to hell in a handbasket.

Since the doc focuses on years that have already happened, it is static. No harm in discussing it, as I thought it would be more interesting to watch it after I "knew" more. Given all the criticism about it, I didn't want to risk that it might teach me some "untruths".

Personally, I could give a rat's ass if jazz is dead or not. That concept is meaningless to me. If it did indeed mean anything, I'd be more upset that my first musical love (rock and roll) has been dead for 40+ years.

And btw, I believe that jazz started out in "hell in a handbasket". The way I see it, given all the race problems in this country that still exist, it never really had a fair chance.