Let's talk Coltrane, Davis

[Tenor Titan]

So I've been hanging out here for a while mainly in the "what are you listening to thread" and I see that everyone here has a very wide listening range. I've never gotten much into John Coltrane or Miles Davis. I have listened to most all of their albums, but I feel like I am missing something. I admit that Milestones and Blue Train (and Sonny's Crib) are superb albums, but as far as their later recordings go, I don't get it. Why is Coltrane so celebrated when Jackie McLean does the avant garde just as well. If anybody wants to rant about either of these two men, I'd like to hear it.

[xybert]

I'll be happy to throw some random thoughts on Miles and Coltrane out there. They were/are relatively hugely popular. I was thinking about why and one obvious conclusion is that they had great Bands. Following on from that, they had Bands that stuck together with the same personnel for a number of years. People like that and it makes the music some how more identifiable or something i'm too lazy to think right now. Garrison/Tyner/Jones. Shorter/Hancock/Carter/Williams. Impulse. Columbia. They were very Band-like. There's something that builds up when this happens, both musically and 'aura' wise. Momentum?

Obviously this is just one aspect.

[mulderxcoltrane]

My .02:

For me, I think the discussion boils down to (somewhat related to the PP) what "era" of Coltrane and/or Davis' music you like.

If you like Coltrane's late stuff, then I can see what McLean would be considered an equal in your eyes.

However, if you like Coltrane's earlier stuff, particularly when he was with Miles, then it comes down to the groups.

Not only was Coltrane an amazing musician, but he found his way playing with some unbelievable people. When I listen to his early stuff, I'm always blown away by who else he's playing with.

- MXC

[walkin]

I like Miles from Birth Of The Cool to Agharta and Pangaea.His comeback in the `80s was`nt that good and if he had retired in 1975 that would`ve been fine with me.And yes,the greats in Miles` bands did help bring his music to better levels than many jazz artists
I like all of Coltrane`s music.Even the crazy later years.And again guys like Tyner and Jones were a big part of Coltrane`s music being so good

[murphythecat]

coltrane is only the best technical saxophonist to have ever lived, the most original soloist that I know of, and played with the best jazz artist of all time, I wonder why he is so adored. Seriously, the genius of coltrane is so mindbending, so profound, so unquestionnable, that anyone that say anything against coltrane just, in my minde, dont get it.

If you thinbk that mclean is just as good as Coltrane in the avant garde era, well I cant agree about that, I dont see how Interstellar space and one step beyound can even be considered the same genre. Nobody will touch Coltrane's playing, not even come close, so yeah, thats what I think, only my opinion.

As for miles, well he is in my mind the best trumpet player, period. I do not care about Brownie playing, and people who say Morgan's playing is quivalent to mies, I cant relate. He was not the best technical player, but the guy has so much blues, its ridiculous. Bad guy, infamous, smart, arrogant but respectful, yeah thats why he is so reknown! Plus he conducted the best jazz group of all time (the first quintet( and also led, arguably, the best fusion group (On the Corner band) as well as the second quintet, which is hard to define really (is that avant garde?).

[Tenor Titan]

Originally Posted by murphythecat

coltrane is only the best technical saxophonist to have ever lived, the most original soloist that I know of, and played with the best jazz artist of all time, I wonder why he is so adored. Seriously, the genius of coltrane is so mindbending, so profound, so unquestionnable, that anyone that say anything against coltrane just, in my minde, dont get it.

If you thinbk that mclean is just as good as Coltrane in the avant garde era, well I cant agree about that, I dont see how Interstellar space and one step beyound can even be considered the same genre. Nobody will touch Coltrane's playing, not even come close, so yeah, thats what I think, only my opinion.

As for miles, well he is in my mind the best trumpet player, period. I do not care about Brownie playing, and people who say Morgan's playing is quivalent to mies, I cant relate. He was not the best technical player, but the guy has so much blues, its ridiculous. Bad guy, infamous, smart, arrogant but respectful, yeah thats why he is so reknown! Plus he conducted the best jazz group of all time (the first quintet( and also led, arguably, the best fusion group (On the Corner band) as well as the second quintet, which is hard to define really (is that avant garde?).

This is what I was looking for. The guys I talk jazz with feel the same way about Miles and Coltrane. I do find myself listing to a great deal of Lee Morgan. I can't think of the term to describe Miles' sound on "The Black Hawk Sessions," but that is the sound that rubs me the wrong way. It's too raspy or something. I like that sharp punch trumpet sound you get from Morgan and Brownie.

As for Coltrane, I have been listening to this. I do enjoy McCoy Tyner

[JETman]

Originally Posted by Tenor Titan

So I've been hanging out here for a while mainly in the "what are you listening to thread" and I see that everyone here has a very wide listening range. I've never gotten much into John Coltrane or Miles Davis. I have listened to most all of their albums, but I feel like I am missing something. I admit that Milestones and Blue Train (and Sonny's Crib) are superb albums, but as far as their later recordings go, I don't get it. Why is Coltrane so celebrated when Jackie McLean does the avant garde just as well. If anybody wants to rant about either of these two men, I'd like to hear it.

The allure of Miles is difficult to put into words, but I'll give it a try. I'll leave it to someone else to pontificate on the greatness of John Coltrane.

Let me first state a couple of things so that you know where I'm coming from. First, Miles is my favorite jazz musician. Second, for me, he was the greatest American musician of the 20th century. His greatness doesn't lie in his trumpet playing or in his composing skills. For me, his overall greatness rested in his ability to not only conceptualize his artistic vision, but also to execute it time and time again throughout an almost 50 year career. He led many great bands in his time. He always knew what he wanted out of his sidemen, and found means to get it. If you think about it, he helped to launch the careers, or to accelerate the career progression of so many musicians. With very few exceptions, nobody else can say this.

To illustrate some of what I mean, I'll relay a recent exchange I had with my teenage son:

Son: "Dad, who's your favorite musician?"
Me: "Miles Davis"
Son: "Who's your favorite trumpet player?"
Me: "Clifford Brown"
Son: "How is that possible?"
Me: "Because I can listen to the sound of Clifford Brown's trumpet playing all day long and be happy for that day, but the joy that Miles' music gives me lasts longer"

To further illustrate, let me also point out that the first two (there was a third, which was recently documented by Sony on its "Bootleg Series, Volume 2" release) "great" quintets that Miles led were considered influential and groundbreaking, and can still be heard in much of the music produced today in jazz.

In a very brief nutshell, this is why I can't stay away from Miles' music for too long.

[JETman]

Originally Posted by Tenor Titan

As for Coltrane, I have been listening to this. I do enjoy McCoy Tyner

Great box. Just so you know, Fantasy made tons of discographical errors in this box. I know they're documented out on the web. This is one place, which happens to occur on the same site you reference above:

http://www.wildmusic-jazz.com/livetr...ell_letter.htm

[Jazz_Fellow]

Originally Posted by JETman

The allure of Miles is difficult to put into words, but I'll give it a try. I'll leave it to someone else to pontificate on the greatness of John Coltrane.

Let me first state a couple of things so that you know where I'm coming from. First, Miles is my favorite jazz musician. Second, for me, he was the greatest American musician of the 20th century. His greatness doesn't lie in his trumpet playing or in his composing skills. For me, his overall greatness rested in his ability to not only conceptualize his artistic vision, but also to execute it time and time again throughout an almost 50 year career. He led many great bands in his time. He always knew what he wanted out of his sidemen, and found means to get it. If you think about it, he helped to launch the careers, or to accelerate the career progression of so many musicians. With very few exceptions, nobody else can say this.

To illustrate some of what I mean, I'll relay a recent exchange I had with my teenage son:

Son: "Dad, who's your favorite musician?"
Me: "Miles Davis"
Son: "Who's your favorite trumpet player?"
Me: "Clifford Brown"
Son: "How is that possible?"
Me: "Because I can listen to the sound of Clifford Brown's trumpet playing all day long and be happy for that day, but the joy that Miles' music gives me lasts longer"

To further illustrate, let me also point out that the first two (there was a third, which was recently documented by Sony on its "Bootleg Series, Volume 2" release) "great" quintets that Miles led were considered influential and groundbreaking, and can still be heard in much of the music produced today in jazz.

In a very brief nutshell, this is why I can't stay away from Miles' music for too long.

What you have said there JETman is perfect, I have almost the exact same approach with Miles (my favourite jazz musician) and Lee Morgan (my favourite trumpet player). Well said indeed.

[Kevin Murray]

The thing about Miles (and Trane, too) was the soul!! I mean, every note those guys played was worth a ton, and they never sugar-coated their solos with catchy licks -- it was 100% about the message, the feeling, and the soul.

* I'm sure you've heard that before. *