Stella by Starlight (analysis of modulation)

[dogbite]

Originally Posted by michaelsorg

Sorry folks, I don't want anybody to feel Pist-on, but I will hang on to my assertion that these chromatic tones #2 and #4 or b3 and b5 can go, and always have gone in all genres, both ways! I could concede that it's a different feeling going up vs. coming down, but that's the nature of inversion. The interesting thing is, you'd think one was progression and one retrogression, but they're both progression: rootless B7b9/D# to Em, or D7b9 to G7sus or whatever...

both ways? or all four:

B°7 can resolve as a vii° (V7b9) i in Am, Cm, Ebm(D#m) or F#m because there is no real difference between B°, D°, F° or G#°...

the inversions are minutiae. the whole point of the exploration of the diminished seventh chord is its ambiguity, its need to resolve but also its uncertainty of where to resolve to...

at the risk of being irritable (who me?) this is not new. we used the bruce benward theory text in college and i don't think it's substantially any different than what michaelsorg (or piston) is getting at: i°=#ii°(biii°)=#iv°(bv°)=vi°, etc...

piston says "tends to" and that's even ambiguous, else he would've said "must" or "should" - the diminished seventh chord may be used to resolve to anything because of its inherent instability and ambiguity and that's what makes it beautiful!

bye bye!

[Mike A]

Originally Posted by dogbite

both ways? or all four:

B°7 can resolve as a vii° (V7b9) i in Am, Cm, Ebm(D#m) or F#m because there is no real difference between B°, D°, F° or G#°...

the inversions are minutiae. the whole point of the exploration of the diminished seventh chord is its ambiguity, its need to resolve but also its uncertainty of where to resolve to...

at the risk of being irritable (who me?) this is not new. we used the bruce benward theory text in college and i don't think it's substantially any different than what michaelsorg (or piston) is getting at: i°=#ii°(biii°)=#iv°(bv°)=vi°, etc...

piston says "tends to" and that's even ambiguous, else he would've said "must" or "should" - the diminished seventh chord may be used to resolve to anything because of its inherent instability and ambiguity and that's what makes it beautiful!

bye bye!

The interesting aspect to me is Piston's point that the "+II7", as he calls it (II7 with raised 1 and 3), has a sound that is different from a diminished chord that functions as an incomplete dominant. E.g., the #iv o7 in a blues is not functioning as V7/V.

[dogbite]

Originally Posted by Mike A

The interesting aspect to me is Piston's point that the "+II7", as he calls it (II7 with raised 1 and 3), has a sound that is different from a diminished chord that functions as an incomplete dominant. E.g., the #iv o7 in a blues is not functioning as V7/V.

yeah, i think that the #iv° in the sixth bar of twelve-bar blues is functioning as i° rather than "dominant" and if you're saying that context is of import, yeah i'll buy that - but further, i agree wholly...

so if there is a difference between the vii° i subbing for V7b9 i and the diminished seventh not functioning as a dominant to tonic, what are the possibilities:

B° C sounds like an authentic cadence to me (G7b9 C)

and if C° C does not, is it a plagal cadence as in F7b9 C or more likely a "color change?"

and C#° C (as in C C#° Dm D#° Em7 A7 Dm7 G7 going backwards) also seems "plagal" to me, but in any event the diminished seventh chord is a chord in transition, in forward motion to a goal or more simply stated, a passing chord.

yeah i may be full of poo here but it seems to me that once the diminished seventh is sounded, the door is open to "all that" and perhaps more. in the meantime, here's to all the ambiguous and amphibious left handed frogs of the world

[jazz oud]

Originally Posted by dogbite

yeah, i think that the #iv° in the sixth bar of twelve-bar blues is functioning as i° rather than "dominant" and if you're saying that context is of import, yeah i'll buy that - but further, i agree wholly...

In bebop blues contexts it seems to me often to function more as an incomplete V/iii, which seems borne out by the frequent substitution of iii for one in following measure. I agree that it doesn't sound like incomplete V/V to me either.

Otherwise, your general point I agree with wholeheartedly:

in any event the diminished seventh chord is a chord in transition, in forward motion to a goal or more simply stated, a passing chord.

yeah i may be full of poo here but it seems to me that once the diminished seventh is sounded, the door is open to "all that" and perhaps more. in the meantime, here's to all the ambiguous and amphibious left handed frogs of the world

[michaelsorg]

Originally Posted by Mike A

The interesting aspect to me is Piston's point that the "+II7", as he calls it (II7 with raised 1 and 3), has a sound that is different from a diminished chord that functions as an incomplete dominant. E.g., the #iv o7 in a blues is not functioning as V7/V.

Have you tried plugging in the II7b9 instead of #iv o7 ? E.G. IV7 - #iv o7 - I 64. I think it works great, and it's been used in classical and elsewhere. A million tunes (such as A Train) move from IV to II7, especially in the bridge. Another very powerful motion is from II7 to iv min or one of its subs.

But I could agree that the best dominant substitute for #iv o7 is not II7 but VII7, in other words if we're in C blues, you move from F7 to B7 to C7. You could call it a plagal tritone sub! In which case Dogbite's reference holds water:

Originally Posted by dogbite

and if C° C does not, is it a plagal cadence as in F7b9 C or more likely a "color change?"

Of course you can just call B7 to C7 a chromatic approach, which goes back to my assertion that you can derive 3 different analyses for i o7 and its inversions. Looking back at my post, I never really did sum it up too neatly, so let me try:
The #ii o7 in it's various forms can be:
1. a chromatic motion (embellishment in voice leading)
2. V7/V function, even when V does not immediately follow
3. V7 of iii

[Scott Rosen]

Late to the game. Great thread. Thank you. Dogbite's analysis rings true for me. But in terms of how to actually play over it, I like thinking of it as V7/V or the V7/iii. Even if it doesn't resolve to the V or the iii.

[raneyjr]

Originally Posted by Scott Rosen

Late to the game. Great thread. Thank you. Dogbite's analysis rings true for me. But in terms of how to actually play over it, I like thinking of it as V7/V or the V7/iii. Even if it doesn't resolve to the V or the iii.

For me, it feels somewhat simpler. Diminished chords have 2 directions:

• up
• down

Over the years, I remember this in classical analysis classes, there was a lot of reconciling of diminished chords ad hidden Vo7 and the like. But for me the whole dim thing is slightly different in each composer or period's hands. In terms of the popular song and jazz period of the 20th century, dim chords have specific motion to parts of the primary chord (up) or motion to another non primary chord (down)

So for example Co, Ebo and F#o have very particular motion but generally to inverted positions of the C chord pr substitutions (Co- C, Ebo-C/E or E-, F#o- C/G. They feel like lower appogiaturas (if I remember my terminology right). Note for example I don't mention Ao. It doesn't really have any convincing decisive target except perhaps C/G but F#o to C/G handles it better. You might also be inclined to make Ao resolve to D- in the same way the Ebo resolves to D- in downward resolving tones. Also by extension Co cannot move up to Db(??) root because that would be chromatic

Ebo- D-, F#o- F have similar downward resolving motion of the lower tones and common tone ties to the next chord. In other words these are motions to non-tonic chords that eventually progress to I.

Sp in a nutshell I try not to box myself in by thinking of hidden V-I motion and the like and just think of the likely motion based on intention, root location and repeated practice and hearing.