"In the pocket" slang

[Buster Caymmi]

Hi guys, please, need some help.
I heard about this slang and i'd like to have some more information, it's very important...
Well, the definitions i have are the one from this site:

In the Pocket --- Refers to the rhythm section being really together as in...
Those guys are really in the pocket, tonight.

and this other:

In The Pocket
A jazz term which means: at the best tempo -- not too slow or too fast -- to bring out the best qualities of a particular arrangement of a composition

Ok, now, what i want to know: is it a slang used in the past and not anymore? Is it a slang with other meanings outside the jazz world? And most important, if anywone could tell me how they created, the possible answers, the possible thought that lead this expression to the meaning refered above in two examples...

I'd be very very very thankful if anyone could help me. To be even clearer, let me tell that i'm not english natural speaker, i'm brazilian, so, about slangs, i really don't understad much...

[Tenorman]

Hi Buster,

to the BB

Which country is the source of the phrase -- USA??

What sources have you already checked for answers (saves members going over the same ground)

[Valerie]

welcome, welcome.

from my experience, the term, "in the pocket" is really an old one and i don't believe it is used that much anymore. it is definitely also used outside of jazz meaning anything that is "just right" or "exactly right," "in the right place," etc. it may even have originally come from the game of pool or billiards.

please do not take this as any expert opinion but i hope it is helpful.

[Tenorman]

Hmmm, yes, there are uses outside Jazz

From a UK standpoint (possibly American influenced from Pool in the US or Snooker or Billiards in the UK)

Referring to an event "In the pocket" means that the outcome is certain (possibly with some hint of that being underhand)

Referring to a person it would mean that that person has been "bought" and they will do what is required.

It is not a phrase I know with any connection to music in the UK -- but someone else may know it -- hence my first query about country of origin

[Dennis_M]

Hey Buster,
For me, 'in the pocket' means the nine ball in the corner pocket, which I can hardly ever accomplish these days. But I agree with the others, it means 'in the groove' or just 'right'.

Welcome to a great, great place. Lots of good folks here!

[clave]

...which is, I bet, the origin of the Basie title "Corner Pocket."

Buster, I can't resist asking: are you a distant cousin of Dorival?!



(BTW, I'd love to have a copy of this book!)

[Buster Caymmi]

Thanks very much! For the answers and the welcomes.
Hi Clave, well, sorry to disapoint you... i'm just a huge fan of Dorival Caymmi and Buster Keaton. Mixing both, weel, you have me! kidding...
But i came from Salvador, and just as Dorival, now i live in Rio de Janeiro. Don't know if i can do anything for you about that book, but if i can... do you live in London?

I'm really thankful. Some of you may think what you've written wasn't of much help. but believe me, anything is a help.
I didn't expect to have answers so quickly, well it seems this board is really alive! Great!
Tenorman, sorry, but i didn't get you about the thing --USA...
But about the sources, well, never heard about this slang until yesterday when i found this
http://www.classicthemes.com/glossary.html
Glossary of Music and Media terms. Then i got interested and arrived here. The "All about Jazz" had the other definition and that was all.

So, certainly an old slang, not used anymore in the jazz world, at least as before, and the pocket is the pocket of the game, not of any clothe...
Thanks thaks thanks
Well, if there's anyone with something more to say, please!
Glad i arrived here. Hope i can learn a lot about jaaaaaazz... And don't bother you with my little knowledge...

[omar zamora]

FWIW, the motto of Sharp Nine Records, a label specializing in contemporary bop and hard bop musicians, is "Straight Ahead and In the Pocket".

[Scottone]

musicians' slang, like most music, has varied not just between eras, but also regions. 'swinging' was replaced by 'in the pocket', which has been replaced with 'in the groove' in some areas, but not all.
ethnic groups also have different ways of describing that great feeling when the music settles into the proper tempo; when the rhythm section plays as a section- not as combatants; when the bass line is both solid and supple, allowing for a nice dialogue between piano and drums; when the soloist is able to ride effortlessly in the comfort of the group's musical flow.

so, to me, playing in the pocket always meant more than just an ideal tempo: it is also the way the roles of the players are defined and executed, where everyone does the job assigned to them, thereby creating (paradoxically, it seems) even more freedom in the music for everyone.

[Tenorman]

Hi Buster,
What I was referring to was that different countries and sometimes different regions within a country have a different expression for the same thing. On other occasions the same expression can mean two different things in two different countries.
The US, UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand, despite all speaking English as the main language, have widely differing slang terms.

Looks like the replies are coming in now anyway, so my question is academic

Cheers

PS the thing about this site is, that all of us pool our "little knowledge" until it becomes a great big knowledge. Join in, ask questions. We are keen to help, and you probably know a lot of things that we don't - you just don't know what they are yet

[Karl]

"In the pocket" is just as abstract as "swing". As a rhythm-sectionist i use this phrase quite often, though I lead my rehearsals mostly in german, but there is just no better expression to express what I want. "In the pocket" means swinging+perfect timing+charisma+x, x being that little bit of magic no one can explain but everyone can clearly feel, and even more feel the lack of it.

[Shawn=)]

for me "in the pocket" is about timing. Everyone swinging right together.

Great examples would be Count Basie, or for a more agressive (on top of the beat) groove, check out Pfrancing (no blues) on Someday My Prince will Come. Jimmy Cob, Paul Chambers, and Wynton Kelly really lay it down on that one.

It's one of my all time favorite Miles cuts, not because of the great solos (but I love those) but the overall vibe on that song is perfect... hard driving swing, and definitely * in the pocket.

Shawn

ps I think In the Pocket could apply to non-swing music too... I can think of Sambas and such where everyone plays the notes just in the right moment in time together, and that would be in the pocket.....

[zaragemca]

The phrase was used ouside the jazz first,I still remember in my country my Grandfather and people around his age using it to mean,gaining the confident of somebody,(echarselo en el bolsillo),and we, (the musicians in Cuba), would use it to mean total dominion of the music/genre.Gerry Zaragemca

[Phil Kelly]

I first heard the term in the early '70s doing R&B dates with rhythm players. It is a term that implied a gestalt of good time, the right tempo, and the players really listening to each other and not overplaying, the whole becoming something more than the sum of the parts.

For me , a synonym for "pocket" would be the group Stuff ..with the late Richard Tee, Steve Gadd, Eric Gale, Gordon Edwards, and Cornell DuPree ..

[jeffr]

Hi Buster
Check out this site, http://www.worldwidewords.org/index.htm. It's very interesting although it doesn't answer your question. It also has links to many other online sites about language, phrases, and slang which may be interesting.