Modal bass?

C. Osullivan · February 18th, 2006, 08:18 AM

Can anyone lend ay insight or advice for someone who wants to get a concept for walking bass on modal jazz?

Jakeweiser · February 18th, 2006, 08:30 AM

depends on the mode you are walking on. Each mode has characteristics to it which make them sound different from each other. In some cases it's very specific. For example if you are walking in Dorian (C dorian) then you better play a natural 6 scale degree in your line instead of the lowered 6 to keep the sound of that mode clear.

Learning the modes on the bass is the first key, fingering them, hearing them. Second, the best piece of advice you can do is find a copy of the tune you want to learn to walk on, and transcrbve that bassists lines, not all of it, that would take a long time but after transcribing a chorus or two you'll be able to generalize the concept of that persons walking on that tune and will be a great tool

seb09 · February 19th, 2006, 09:01 PM

I like relating all the modes to their just plain old regular major and minor scales. Phrygian... take your aeolian (minor scale) and drop the 2nd a half tone.
Lydian... raise your fourth.
so and so forth...

But dont just learn the intervals that are present in modes, learn how the notes present in the mode sound together in a melody (ANY melody... make up your own once you learn the fingering of whatever mode... or do some transcription and figure out what mode they're playing in your favorite line of your favorite modal piece) AND how they sound together in chords. When you see a C-7b9 realise that... dun dun dun, its in exotic sounding phrygian. Try improvising in selected modes at different tempos and different rhythms? How's that change the feel of it?

I don't think walking bass lines lend well to modal tunes though. I dunno, maybe im biased... im not really a fan of walking bass, it just feels too set in stone, not artistic/creative enough for me.

Modal tune chord progressions are generally loooooooongggg (as in changes slooooowlyy), so its more about... familiarising yourself with all of the modes and just feeling out the music. You're the bassist though, so you're kinda the "backbone" holding everything together, so keep that in mind. Just... forget that "play root on first beat, passing tone second, chord tone third, leading tone fourth" shit for a while and just see what crazy shit you can come up with... while keeping in mind that you're the backbone. Don't fear borrowing notes from other modes either (where you see it fit...)

shiatoru · February 19th, 2006, 10:33 PM

seb09 wrote:

Quote:

I don't think walking bass lines lend well to modal tunes though. I dunno, maybe im biased... im not really a fan of walking bass, it just feels too set in stone, not artistic/creative enough for me.

Somebody should have told Paul Chambers and Ron Carter that before they "walked" all over those modal Miles Davis tunes.....

Russ
http://www.russletson.com

Jakeweiser · February 19th, 2006, 10:40 PM

I'm sure that Dave Holland doesn't perscribe to that idea either.

Either way, an approach to walking over Modal or more active harmony shouldn't really be much different. Walking is a rhytmic idea more then anything else as far as I am concerned.

Listen to good bassists, internalize their concepts through transcription and lessons and play with good jazz players as often as possible

seb09 · February 20th, 2006, 04:56 PM

Ohhh, ok, now that you guys have said that... walking bass lines are the best! Really...

Sorry guys... I see walking bass lines as... a lack of rhythmic idea. That's just how I see it (if I's weren't normally capitalised, it still would be here... consider this a double capitalized I... this is MY opinion, and you guys are allowed yours). Yes, they do lend themselves very well to LOADS of tunes, tunes EYE'll often enjoy very much... I just think there's soooo many possiblities in music, why would you choose to not explore them. Remember... MY opinion. I play bass myself... and I know I wouldn't be able to stand play one walking line after another. I am mostly a guitarist though.

Jakeweiser · February 20th, 2006, 05:25 PM

yes and I respect your opinion. But the starter of this post is looking for advice on how to walk base lines over modal harmony and that's why we've tried to help him.

Walking bass is a traditional role and if you can't walk basslines in a Jazz setting then you are in trouble. Vamps and repeated figures are all well and good and I enjoy them a great deal. A lot of tunes I write don't have walking baselines and are modal, written out structures to use. But someone learning to play jazz bass has to learn to walk bass lines period, that is not an opinion, it's a fact.

seb09 · February 20th, 2006, 05:49 PM

yeah, I was kinda directing that more at shiatoru, I dunno, I just don't appreciate that sort of sarcasm, although am more than ready to reciprocate it.

I guess I often go off on little tangents, yeah, I threw the post a little off course, away from the walking part of bass lines, although i'm sure much of the info I gave will help a lot even in a walking bass setting. Osullivan, just... take what you like, leave what you don't.

shiatoru · February 20th, 2006, 07:21 PM

seb09,

I don't mean to come off as insulting. My comment was a tad sarcastic I will admit. But to post on a jazz board that walking bass lines don't lend themselves to modal tunes....most folks here are going to postulate that you either don't like / listen to much jazz or you're just trolling.

You can say all day long that you don't like or even hate a walking bass line and that's a perfectly valid opinion. People can like or dislike whatever they choose.

But then you say in your last post:

Quote:

Sorry guys... I see walking bass lines as... a lack of rhythmic idea

To say something like that is just plain insulting to some of the worlds finest musicians both living and dead. Maybe you don't like what they played and that's fine but to insinuate that they lacked rhythmic ideas is pretty uninformed to say the least.

FWIW - I'm no jazz nazi. Not by a long shot. Music doesn't have to swing.
Sorry for being so reactionary.

Russ
http://www.russletson.com

seb09 · February 20th, 2006, 08:09 PM

yeah, i'm new enough to the world of jazz, have been more of a metalhead for a while (and still mostly am, although my music is definetly gaining more and more of a somewhat jazzy sound). I'll admit, i'm still very ignorant to the subtleties of most genres of jazz. But I've yet to find pretty much any songs with walking bass lines that pique my interest rhythmically. I dunno man... most walking bass line rhythms are pretty set in stone... you'll have to admit that, although I guess that is why they're called walking bass lines... heh. I may of said what I said a bit harshly earlier, but I still see it as a valid observation. I'm talking about the bass lines here though... the rest of the rhythmic, melodic, chordal stuff in "non walking bass" , that's the stuff that's turned me onto jazz, like... HOLY CRAP is there some awesome ideas out there in the world of jazz. There's definetly lots of great melodic stuff in some walking bass lines though, beautiful movement between chords and what not (dunno if melodic is the right term for this though?)

codewarrior · February 21st, 2006, 07:58 AM

This seems both 1) uninformed and 2) really not helpful to this thread

C. Osullivan · February 21st, 2006, 02:54 PM

Thanks for the help I've been offered-- I'm actually a guitar player, but, since I have a bass, I'd like to develop basic competence at it, I'm not being overly ambitious at it, but I'm still making an effort at it and thank you each for your contribution.

February 18th, 2006, 08:18 AM	#1
C. Osullivan Registered User Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 7	Modal bass? Can anyone lend ay insight or advice for someone who wants to get a concept for walking bass on modal jazz?

February 18th, 2006, 08:30 AM	#2
Jakeweiser www.jakehanlon.com Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Antigonish, Nova Scotia, Canada Posts: 4,930	depends on the mode you are walking on. Each mode has characteristics to it which make them sound different from each other. In some cases it's very specific. For example if you are walking in Dorian (C dorian) then you better play a natural 6 scale degree in your line instead of the lowered 6 to keep the sound of that mode clear. Learning the modes on the bass is the first key, fingering them, hearing them. Second, the best piece of advice you can do is find a copy of the tune you want to learn to walk on, and transcrbve that bassists lines, not all of it, that would take a long time but after transcribing a chorus or two you'll be able to generalize the concept of that persons walking on that tune and will be a great tool __________________ "I am not in a habit of quoting myself..." - Jake Hanlon Check out my website

February 19th, 2006, 10:40 PM	#5
Jakeweiser www.jakehanlon.com Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Antigonish, Nova Scotia, Canada Posts: 4,930	I'm sure that Dave Holland doesn't perscribe to that idea either. Either way, an approach to walking over Modal or more active harmony shouldn't really be much different. Walking is a rhytmic idea more then anything else as far as I am concerned. Listen to good bassists, internalize their concepts through transcription and lessons and play with good jazz players as often as possible __________________ "I am not in a habit of quoting myself..." - Jake Hanlon Check out my website

February 20th, 2006, 05:25 PM	#7
Jakeweiser www.jakehanlon.com Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Antigonish, Nova Scotia, Canada Posts: 4,930	yes and I respect your opinion. But the starter of this post is looking for advice on how to walk base lines over modal harmony and that's why we've tried to help him. Walking bass is a traditional role and if you can't walk basslines in a Jazz setting then you are in trouble. Vamps and repeated figures are all well and good and I enjoy them a great deal. A lot of tunes I write don't have walking baselines and are modal, written out structures to use. But someone learning to play jazz bass has to learn to walk bass lines period, that is not an opinion, it's a fact. __________________ "I am not in a habit of quoting myself..." - Jake Hanlon Check out my website

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February 19th, 2006, 09:01 PM	#3
seb09 Registered User Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 105	I like relating all the modes to their just plain old regular major and minor scales. Phrygian... take your aeolian (minor scale) and drop the 2nd a half tone. Lydian... raise your fourth. so and so forth... But dont just learn the intervals that are present in modes, learn how the notes present in the mode sound together in a melody (ANY melody... make up your own once you learn the fingering of whatever mode... or do some transcription and figure out what mode they're playing in your favorite line of your favorite modal piece) AND how they sound together in chords. When you see a C-7b9 realise that... dun dun dun, its in exotic sounding phrygian. Try improvising in selected modes at different tempos and different rhythms? How's that change the feel of it? I don't think walking bass lines lend well to modal tunes though. I dunno, maybe im biased... im not really a fan of walking bass, it just feels too set in stone, not artistic/creative enough for me. Modal tune chord progressions are generally loooooooongggg (as in changes slooooowlyy), so its more about... familiarising yourself with all of the modes and just feeling out the music. You're the bassist though, so you're kinda the "backbone" holding everything together, so keep that in mind. Just... forget that "play root on first beat, passing tone second, chord tone third, leading tone fourth" shit for a while and just see what crazy shit you can come up with... while keeping in mind that you're the backbone. Don't fear borrowing notes from other modes either (where you see it fit...)

February 20th, 2006, 04:56 PM	#6
seb09 Registered User Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 105	Ohhh, ok, now that you guys have said that... walking bass lines are the best! Really... Sorry guys... I see walking bass lines as... a lack of rhythmic idea. That's just how I see it (if I's weren't normally capitalised, it still would be here... consider this a double capitalized I... this is MY opinion, and you guys are allowed yours). Yes, they do lend themselves very well to LOADS of tunes, tunes EYE'll often enjoy very much... I just think there's soooo many possiblities in music, why would you choose to not explore them. Remember... MY opinion. I play bass myself... and I know I wouldn't be able to stand play one walking line after another. I am mostly a guitarist though.

February 20th, 2006, 05:49 PM	#8
seb09 Registered User Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 105	yeah, I was kinda directing that more at shiatoru, I dunno, I just don't appreciate that sort of sarcasm, although am more than ready to reciprocate it. I guess I often go off on little tangents, yeah, I threw the post a little off course, away from the walking part of bass lines, although i'm sure much of the info I gave will help a lot even in a walking bass setting. Osullivan, just... take what you like, leave what you don't.

February 20th, 2006, 08:09 PM	#10
seb09 Registered User Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 105	yeah, i'm new enough to the world of jazz, have been more of a metalhead for a while (and still mostly am, although my music is definetly gaining more and more of a somewhat jazzy sound). I'll admit, i'm still very ignorant to the subtleties of most genres of jazz. But I've yet to find pretty much any songs with walking bass lines that pique my interest rhythmically. I dunno man... most walking bass line rhythms are pretty set in stone... you'll have to admit that, although I guess that is why they're called walking bass lines... heh. I may of said what I said a bit harshly earlier, but I still see it as a valid observation. I'm talking about the bass lines here though... the rest of the rhythmic, melodic, chordal stuff in "non walking bass" , that's the stuff that's turned me onto jazz, like... HOLY CRAP is there some awesome ideas out there in the world of jazz. There's definetly lots of great melodic stuff in some walking bass lines though, beautiful movement between chords and what not (dunno if melodic is the right term for this though?)

February 21st, 2006, 07:58 AM	#11
codewarrior Registered User Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 571	This seems both 1) uninformed and 2) really not helpful to this thread

February 21st, 2006, 02:54 PM	#12
C. Osullivan Registered User Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 7	Thanks for the help I've been offered-- I'm actually a guitar player, but, since I have a bass, I'd like to develop basic competence at it, I'm not being overly ambitious at it, but I'm still making an effort at it and thank you each for your contribution.